A Followup to the previous post titled “Is Armour Working…or Not?”

Four days ago, I was finally able to compose a blog post about two issues: that something fishy/suspicious seemed to be going on with Armour desiccated thyroid for a certain body of hypothyroid or Hashimoto’s patients. Plus some comments were also going around that needed better balance.

For anyone new to this topic and scratching your head about any part above:

1) Armour is a brand prescription of porcine desiccated thyroid that has been around for many, many decades. It was, in fact, the only most successful hypothyroid treatment.
2) Desiccated Thyroid has all five hormones (T4, T3, T2, T1 and calcitonin) and has been changing lives all over again since the turn of this century, unlike T4-only which appeared to be a poor treatment for too many patients since 1960.
3) Over the past few years, Armour was the only desiccated thyroid that patients reported was still working, unlike what patients were reporting about Naturethroid, WP Thyroid, and NP Thyroid. And all three of the latter were recalled with most strengths after numerous patient complaints!

What has been brewing about Armour desiccated thyroid?

Turns out that some patients, in different locations, have been noticing and reporting a downhill slide with Armour, whereas before, they didn’t have those problems. For some on the same dose, their labs plummeted, and in this group, there were occasional posted labs to prove it. Other patients in this group simply noticed a strange return of symptoms after doing well for quite awhile.

The other problem

Unfortunately, a strong statement was also going around that Armour was working for “NO ONE”!! But that was unbalanced and false. For those who were paying attention, there have been another body of patients who are still reporting and experiencing Armour as working, and found the latter statement of “NO ONE” insulting to their own experience. And some of these patients have labs to prove it is still working, too.

Is there a possibility that a large body of us will find Armour not working like it used to? Yes. It happened before in 2009. Yet, even with the latter, and even though it appeared to be a huge percentage who had problems in 2009, there were STILL a minority who claimed they were still fine. Patient experiences DO HAVE gray areas.

Today, no one is a magical soothsayer. And with a variety of opposite patient experiences going on, we are nowhere near being able to claim that Armour is currently working for NO ONE. We need time and more experiences to truly figure out what is going on.

Four Armour Exploration posts were created on the Stop the Thyroid Madness (STTM) facebook page

Below are mention of the four graphic questions. Keep in mind that STTM is not, nor am I, a polling business. This is informal. But it doesn’t take away what we are getting from the comments to each question.

For each question below that was posted on the STTM Facebook page, I also refer here and there to the two camps: those who experienced clear changes vs those who experience still doing well. When you see reference to “optimal“, this refers to having a free T3 in the upper part of the range, and the free T4 around midrange–an important goal we learned about years ago. If we don’t get optimal, our good results eventually backfire. We wanted to differentiate backfiring from not being optimal, to backfiring due to Armour having changed for the negative.

QUESTION #1: Asking where people live who had optimal frees, then redid labs on the same amount of Armour, and now saw their labs were messed up.

This was an attempt to see if locations are common for those who once had optimal labs, then on the same amount and new labs, saw negative changes in their lab results. Before each below will be either GREEN square (representing those experiencing Armour still working), a RED square (representing those whose labs shows a solid experience of a changed Armour) or a BLUE square (representing either a neutral statement, a statement without enough proof, a statement that didn’t fit what the graphic was asking for, or other.)

Had a few state a negative change to labs, but there were problems identifying this as Armour being bad. For example, one possibly had high RT3 (didn’t test it) and another suspected a nodule changing her labs.

One stated she felt she was good, then moved to T4/T3, but we don’t have enough information as she didn’t post labs or go into more detail.

One guy did mention that all labs are showing optimal and have for four years.  (Wish we could have seen the labs, but four years is strong). Another gal said basically the same, but no labs. More positive comments like this under the “other” below.  

A gal mentioned feeling achy, but no thyroid labs to help explain why and could be about low iron. So better info is needed.

Two gals mentioned previous optimal labs, then they went off. One of the two mentioned she’s getting adrenals checked before saying what caused it.

A gal found herself with “crazy high T3”. Another was over range. But more needs to be explored, as a cortisol problem can do that, too.

One gal had symptoms and raising did nothing, so she stopped the Armour. (What we can’t discern with this is were her raises still too low, which would do nothing for her. Need better info to have a strong lean.)

Another gal says she was stable for years on Armour, then her labs were abnormally low in May and June.

A gal in Ireland experiences all is fine, but no labs for more solid proof.

One gal states optimal on 4 grains plus 25mcg T3.  This has been mentioned a few times before and makes you wonder if adding T3 to Armour is a good idea right now. Thus the green.

QUESTION #2: If you are in the camp still experiencing good results with Armour, where do you live?

This is an attempt to discern if locations (i.e. where certain lots of Armour were sent) would explain why some experience still doing well on Armour.

Answers all over the map, though in the US, there were more in the east than the west, and only some in the middle area of the US. Other countries were represented, too, as STTM is for worldwide experiences. This did not give us any definitive answer.

QUESTION #3: This was to see if those who experienced a change in Armour had noticed a change in the tablets.

This was sent to me by thyroid patient Kristen. On the RIGHT was Armour tablet in former bottle. On the LEFT is in current bottle!
And THIS one is by thyroid patient Janet and again, newer one on right this time is also less thick! Both of these could mean either less of a filler, or a different pill presser? We need more info.

Then the following comments:

  • No changes from Texas.
  • No changes in any way for over a year.
  • Tastes the same, same shape, same size (and seems to be working)
  • Same size; same smell.
  • Same smell, but looked and tasted different.
  • Felt better on a different script of Armour, but all were the same with the tabs size, smell, etc.
  • Pills from Dec. 2020 and May 2021 are different (now darker in color and less depth). This fits the photo above.
  • Gal said the new ones are smaller, but no photo produced to give confirmation.  You could say the photo with the newer bottle pill on the left is “smaller” in depth.
  • A gal states the working tablets smelled like roasted meat; new ones are medicinal/chemical. But she can’t verify it was Armour. (Would like to hear more feedback from others.)
  • Last month’s tablets dissolve quickly. This month have to bite in to dissolve. This could also fit what we’re seeing in the photo, as right one (older one) looks chalkier, and new one looks firmer.

QUESTION #4: This question asked how much Armour you have been/are on, and to see labs (free T4, free T3 and RT3) from both camps: those who experienced a negative change in their symptoms with labs to prove it, and those who still experienced doing quite well, and with labs.

Unfortunately and as seen often in groups, getting labs posted can be like trying to suck a thick malted ice cream through a skinny straw. It’s challenging. But below is what we got….

Lots of comments that had nothing to do with labs. But the labs posted showed either potential pooling, or not optimal, or lowered T4 due to rising RT3, or simply a too high RT3. Hard to come to conclusions. 


  • On 240 mg Armour for years and no problems. No labs.
  • Doing well on Armour.
  • From Sweden: Doing good on 240 mg Armour plus 20 mg T3. Another positive response when using both. Hmmmmm
  • Some negative replies about Armour that may be more about underdosing. All were pretty low. So not strong enough information.
  • At least FOUR different people commenting that ARMOUR IS WORKING WITH SOME T3.
  • One interesting comment wondering if COVID did this to a lot of people who have had sudden negative problems. 
  • One gal feels like a mess with 180mg five days a week, 360mg two days a week. Odd dosing for sure!
  • Doing great on 360 mg twice a day and 25 T3 twice a day. (She may have Thyroid Hormone resistance, thus the high amounts. 8 years of of doing great, which is strong for Armour working for her)
  • At least three comments for “No issues”. Another comment for “No difference”


The four Armour Exploratory graphic questions underscored the same situation going on for awhile: differences in experiences, meaning one camp experiencing Armour has changed for the negative, and another camp experiencing still doing quite fine on Armour. So looks like we need more time, more reports.

In the meantime, those who went downhill can definitely consider switching to using synthetic T4 with synthetic T3. And do know that people are using different brands of each successfully. And it continues to be important to learn this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

Others may end up adding T3 to that Armour, but it will be important to have the right amount of cortisol, we as informed patients know first hand. Raising T3 in the presence of a cortisol problem all too frequently results in hyper-like symptoms as T3 climbs high in the blood without the right amount of cortisol. The right amount of cortisol helps that T3 attach to cell receptors. Here’s a saliva cortisol test you can order: https://saliva-cortisol.squarespace.com/

So we’ll all keep an eye out over time.

Important notes: All the information on this website is copyrighted. STTM is an information-only site based on what many patients worldwide have reported in their treatment and wisdom over the years. This is not to be taken as personal medical advice, nor to replace a relationship with your doctor. By reading this information-only website, you take full responsibility for what you choose to do with this website's information or outcomes. See the Disclaimer and Terms of Use.

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143 Responses to “A Followup to the previous post titled “Is Armour Working…or Not?””

  1. Katya says:

    It’s so difficult trying to navigate our super awesome health care industry with a foggy brain.
    My pharmacy just phoned telling me Medi-cal rules have changed since the 1st and Armour/natdessicatedthyroid is no longer covered. Medicare won’t cover…my rent/food/gas/heat goes up but my income just doesn’t.
    Is there any known workarounds, discounts or substitutes?
    Just yelling into the void~

  2. My doctor told me I could up my dose, and if Armour no longer works I can change to NP. My labs were free T 17. and free4 1.4, also was only 3 hours between dose 120mg Armour, and labs.I’m frustrated.Couldn’t get photo thru, but will send you some pills to see for yourself. ( can email secure address) I truly believe the porcine was cut to half.

  3. Tammis Kennedy says:

    I went on the “new pill” in October and went into low thyroid. The skinnier pill, from Austin compounding. Since Armor always worked so well, had no idea what was wrong.. I began upping the dose and went from 3 at 60 mg to 8 on the new pill. I felt good and Dr. told me to do my labs, so I was 17 T3 and 14 T4 ; doctor freaked out and now I’m reducing dose. It’s not where you live , eventually everyone will get this new pill from Allergan labs that bought out Armour and changed to this awful pill that’s making my life hell!!! We all need to address this …..

    • Tammis, that is unfortunately inadequate information you have given. For one, you mention the “new pill”, but never mentioned what milligram this single pill was, how much you were on, and what is on the front and back of this pill. I’d also need a photo of the pill.

      Second, your next sentence implies it’s from Austin compounding. Armour is not made by a compounder. So that is extremely confusing.

      For the lab results you gave, you gave no ranges nor if those are totals or frees. You also failed to give the RT3 with range, which is very important. Additionally, we need to know if you’ve checked your adrenals and how.

      This is the problem with so many reports. They are inadequate.

      • Tammis Kennedy says:

        The pill is armor thyroid and the pharmacy is Austin compounding. I’ve been on Armour for 10years, have been taking 60 mg. 3x daily, stagger it over the day. It worked beautifully for me and thanks to reading your fabulous book; Stop the thyroid madness, I learned about natural thyroid. The refill on my prescription in October had these different thinner pills. I was out in Santa Fe when I started the new bottle, from one day to the next, I felt great and then I became extremely tired. Could barely drive home, drove out no problem. The new pill, ( just like the pictures on your site) is harder , thinner. I began toying with it and found when I upped my dose I was able to get back to normal energy. Dr. Manzanerro told me my labs were way high and I’m trying to reduce it. I’m very itchy. This is not the old Armour; found several old tablets here and took them and I was fine again. I believe this is the new pill Allergan labs is replacing Armour with. The bottle says level thyroxine 38 mcg. Levelthyronine 9mcg. Pharmacist I spoke to at People’s here in Austin said due to shortage of porcine they can’t get any natural thyroid. I read on Mary Shomans blog that Allergan bought out Armour, and my guess is they changed the pill. Thanks so much for returning a comment, you are helping so many people… hope I have shed some light on this medicine mix up!!!!

        • Thanks for helping me understand that you got it a “pharmacy”. The word compounding before it implied to me that compounding is all they do. Now I get it better.

          In 2009, the makers of Armour also made a change. They added more cellulose, and lowered other fillers. That made it harder. We had to learn back then to chew the tablet up to finally get the result we used to get. That may be the case with your latest batch of Armour now. The pill size though can also be due to the pill pressers they use.

          And by the way, Allergan did not “buy out Armour”. Allergan purchased the former pharmaceutical that made Armour. That is different. Additionally, there has NOT been a push to get rid of NDT as that blog post you mentioned has stated.

          As far as your doctor saying your labs were too high…would you post if they were the free T4 and free T3, and give the results with ranges?

          Often, in their poor knowledge, doctors tell us to lower our meds due to the suppressed TSH we get. They confuse it with the low TSH from Graves disease. We do not have Grave’s, neither do we get bone loss or heart problems like Graves. Our low TSH is simply because we are taking it over by getting optimal frees. So we end up having to stand firm against doctors who give the suppressed TSH way too much credence.

          Also, it’s “some” compounders which are having a hard time getting porcine. It’s not all. Compounders can be using different sources.

          Please post your labs with ranges, and put whether they are free or totals.

  4. Ginny Thomas says:

    I became hyperthyroid in Oct. The following are the ranges the lab used.
    Free T4 0.84-1.62
    Free T3 2.1-3-9
    My Oct. 2021 test results were:
    FT4 1.49
    FT3 4.4
    I had extreme hyperactive symptoms including Tacycardia. We decreased by 1/2 grain and my next test I was Nov. and I tested at:
    Free T4 1.34
    Free T3 4.0
    I tested again in Dec. and my numbers were:
    FT4 1.34
    FT3 4.8
    Less medicine and higher numbers. I contacted Armour and we changed the batch number in case I had gotten a bad batch.
    In Dec. I was having major anxiety and Tachycardia so I decrease 1/4 grain.
    I just tested again this week and my numbers are:
    FT4 1.23
    FT3 3.5
    My question is are these good numbers? The FT4 is right in the middle so I know that is ok but is the T3 ok or should it be higher?
    My TSH for what it is worth is .0005 as I had cancer.
    I wish Nature-thyroid would come back. I never had any problems on that medication.
    Prior to becoming Hyper I lost a lot of weigh and we didn’t change my medication until I was hyper. I am planning on losing about 25 more pounds. My hair loss has slowed down and I am tired but with Tachycardia and possible A-fib that is to be expected.
    Thanks for all the help. I refer a lot of people and doctors to this website and book.

  5. Chris says:

    I’m updating on my statements earlier this year. I take Armour 120 mg and 37.5 mcg of liothiroine. My labs were FT4 1.1 and 4.4 ft3. RT3 was a 14 consistently. Was feeling great.
    The last two refills of Armour thyroid – I am feeling like absolute crap. Thyroid symptoms returning. Waking up feeling fatigued. Headaches, brain fog, no motivation.

    Armour was bought by abbvie and I’m convinced they messed everything up by tweaking things around. It’s no secret symthroid if filled with a bunch of garbage fillers that actually triggers hashimotos patients. It wouldn’t surprise me if they did the same to Armour.

    We need naturethroid and WP to return. I’m thinking of switching to straight up T3 as I haven’t entirely done well on a synthetic T4 therapy treatment (even with T3 added). I’ve thought about asking to go to NP but I’ve read/heard other issues with that drug. After two months of this Armour crap- I can’t take feeling like garbage again.

    NDT was great bc it has the full thyroid replacement t1 2 3 and 4. Sad how these drugs get tweaked for the worst.

    • Chris, the info you gave is far from enough to accurately investigate and come to narrow conclusions as to what is going on.

      For one, an RT3 of 14, compared to where healthy people consistently fall in ranges, shows that something else is going on in your for it to be up to 14, no matter how you “felt” on it. We can feel “great” due to rising cortisol, for one. So with the last two refills of Armour, you need to relook at your RT3 before coming to your conclusions.

      And to also investigate more accurately, you need to do the Discovery Steps on this page, as well as the other info, and be honest with yourself as to what you are reading there. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info Having a cortisol issue can create problems. And you gave away that you may have a cortisol problem. A bad NDT doesn’t directly cause fatigue when waking up. A CORTISOL PROBLEM does.

      No, Abbie didn’t “mess everything up by tweaking things around.” What has happened to all the NDTs is because the only US supplier of porcine powder stopped supplying it in a few years ago. So two pharms admitted that they went outside of the US to get their porcine powder by saying they were now getting it from “Europe”. No telling what “Europe” means. But clearly to us as patients, this is when things started going downhill for us. It’s also why some pharms who totally failed to LISTEN to us ended up seeing the FDA recall their products. Abbvie also admitted they were still able to get their porcine powder from US and Europe sources at first. Could they now be using those so-called “Europe” sources now? Your details are not enough to prove that.

      All the NDTs used to be great. That means Armour, Erfa at one time, NP, Naturethroid, WP. The problems seem to correspond to when they couldn’t get the US-based porcine anymore.

      And if you move to T4 and T3, which is a fine alternative, you still have to treat the cause of that RT3: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/RT3 and still need to explore your adrenals.

      • Chris says:

        I’ve had the morning and PM cortisol checks with the saliva. And blood work. All were not elevated. I go to a functional practitioner so they use optimal ranges.
        Yes Armour is fluky. And yes you may be correct with the porcine. I do not do well on synthetic T4. I’m actually working with my doctor to either reduce my Armour and increase the T3. Or go straight on T3 at this rate.

        • Chris, you are again giving inadequate information. For one, it’s not about two cortisol checks. We have learned for 20 years now we need all four, plus to understand where healthy people fall. To say “all were not elevated” says nothing. And your RT3 is clearly revealing a problem. So nothing in your post proves that Armour is “fluky”.

          • Judy says:

            This has been my experience with armour. It’s not that armour isn’t working. The problem for me is that it’s not consistently working. I get three months prescription filled at a time. There are times when it’s working and my levels are optimal. I feel good. Sleeping well. Everything going well. Then when it’s time for a refill. I start to panic. Because I don’t know if the armour i am getting will be working as well as my last script. Right now I just had a refill in December and I’m not feeling good at all. I’m getting depress not sleeping well. And I know it’s the armoire It has happened before. Even adding t3. When it works. It’s great. But it not consistent. I’m tired of feeling good having all levels optimal. Only to go back to feeling like crap!

          • Hi there Judy. Just an FYI: if this has also happened with T3 as well, then you have to pay attention to your adrenals before blaming Armour…and especially since you also mentioned issues with T3. T3 in a working NDT, and T3 by itself, can reveal an adrenal problem. And 3 months is long enough that something may have stressed one’s adrenals. Because it sounds more like some batches are revealing that your adrenals are more stressed. Especially when you mention sleeping problems. Take the time to open-mindedly study this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info

  6. Sandra Hintz says:

    I used to be on Levothyroxine and eventually changed to Armour 90 mg. What made the real change for me was reading a few books: David Brownstein, MD “Overcoming Thyroid Disorders” and Robert Thompson, MD “Iodine & Your Thyroid.” It was amazing how adding more Iodine to my diet changed everything.

    • Hi Sandra. Glad you found Armour. But do know that 90mg is not enough for the vast majority, thus a return of hypothyroidism comes back with a vengeance. The individuality is when it all comes back. Not opinion, but based on 20 years of experiences. We have to raise until this is achieved: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal If you have a recent Free T3, Free T4 and RT3, might be worth comparing them to what’s on the optimal page.

  7. JOHN WOOTON says:

    I previously posted in November 2021 about what I thought was an allergic reaction to Armour Thyroid that had caused me to develop hives. I WAS WRONG!!
    Despite being off Armour (and other medications), the hives returned! During the time that I was off Armour and on synthroid, I noticed a huge difference in how I felt and functioned! I am now back on Armour and starting to feel normal, although I am still dealing with chronic Urticaria (hives). They now say that perhaps the Covid vaccine is the causation of the hives. Truth is they just don’t know!!
    In any event, I can surely attest to the fact that Synthroid is not the way to go for me! I felt like a zombie on it! Now that I am back on Armour, I am starting to return to normal, except for the hives.
    I do believe that they too shall pass!
    Thank you for the advocacy on Thyroid medication!
    Happy Holidays to all!

    • I and others here appreciate you for coming here to explain that hives situation.

      There are an awful lot of people who are blaming Armour for problems, when in reality, the problems are due to something else. For example, many underdose themselves, thus a return of hypo. That’s not Armour’s fault. Or the T3 in Armour is causing hyperlike symptoms. That’s not Armour’s fault. Those symptoms are what the T3 in Armour is revealing: A cortisol problem.

  8. Ginny Thomas says:

    I took Naturethroid for years (after thyroid cancer) and then had to switch to Armour. I was taking 3 1/2 grains daily. I had perfect labs. When I switched to Armour my labs were still in the perfect range until I lost 107lbs.. Then my T4 was normal but my T3 was high. (range was 2.1-3.9) and I started showing T3 at 3.9 (range 2.1-3.9) in April of 2021. I
    n September I was diagnosed with A-flutter. I immediately went and had thyroid labs and my free T4 was 1.49 (range 0.84-1.62) and my T3 was 4.4 (range 2.1-3.9). I backed off on 1.2 grain and went back 2 weeks later and tested at T4 1.34 (.084-1.62) and T3 had gone down to 4.0 (2.1-3.9). I continued with the 1/2 grain decrease and retested a this week (a month later) and my T4 is 1.45 and my T3 is 4.8. So my T4 and T3 increased with less medication. I am feeling good, my heart pounding, anxiety and short of breath have stopped. I have noticed that I have some hives but I wasn’t sure if it was heat rash as it only happens when I get warm. So where to go from here? My blood pressure and heart rate have returned to normal. I am have a little hair shedding. My doctor is probably going to want me to decrease my meds. Right now I am taking 3 grains. Why would my labs increase with less meds? The only change I made is I do not dissolve under my tongue but take orally. That helped with the heart rate and anxiety.

    • This is just supposition, but it almost sounds like that the makers of armor are still struggling to fine-tune their product as well as their sources.

      But you also might want to check your RT3 and adrenals. Rising are RT3 can cause free T4 to go up a bit. FT3 can go high due to adrenal problems. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info I’ve seen too many people blame Armour when in reality it’s due to the situations like that, or other problems in their dosing. That’s not to take away that there can be occasional issues with armour. But I still see too many people blaming Armour when it’s Other issues.

  9. John Wooton says:

    I had my thyroid removed in Dec 2013 and I have been on Armour for over 7 years- was taking 195 daily. Starting in mid July 2021, I begin to have allergic reactions, and would break out in hives. At first it was manageable, but continued to worsen. I either quit or changed all medications except for Armour Thyroid and there was no relief from the hives! I strongly suspected Armour, but could not believe I was allergic to it since I had been on it so long and had done well. I kept a journal of items that I ingested. I was looking for a food or whatever that triggered my breaking out. It seemed to point that the trigger for the hives was was my Armour!
    I went to an allergy Dr who advised to cease Armour and go on Synthroid. At this point I would have tried anything as the hives were maddening. I was also put on a brief course of steroids. I have also been taking anti histamines since the onset in July.
    Long story short- the steroids helped temporarily, but the discontinuation of Armour has totally alleviated my breaking out in hives! The attacks lessened each day and after 10 days to 2 weeks my hives totally disappeared!
    No more antihistamine, no steroids, just discontinued Armour.
    I believe the binding agent of Armour must have been changed and that is what I am allergic to.
    Has anyone else had allergic reactions to Armour, particularly in the last year?
    As for me, I am trying to adjust to Synthroid and although I feel sluggish, it is a lot better than dealing with hives!

    • John, congrats for figuring out that you were allergic to something in armour. But before thinking it’s okay to be on nothing but Synthroid, read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/t4-only-meds-dont-work

      • John Wooton says:

        Thank you for the post. I was on Synthroid in 2014 and did not do well on it.That is how I found this site. Armour was a very effective alternative for me until I started having allergic reactions. I know Synthroid may not do the job but I have no choice at this time. The Hives were terrible! I am just hoping the company that makes Armour gets straightened out. I would much prefer to take Armour rather than Synthroid. And who knows, maybe I can get back on Armour in the near future!

        • John, I’m thinking you didn’t read what I sent you. The point you are missing is that you need to add T3 to the T4.

        • Karen H. says:

          Hi John. After two years of trying to get back on Armour with ever increasing TSH (last one was 15 after years of less than 1) I finally went back to NP. All my labs after 8 weeks are great. TSH 0.725 and Free T3 and Free T4 at 75% of their respective ranges. I am also feeling so much better. Now if they can just avoid another recall…

          • DJ says:

            I have also been breaking out in hives which I have never had before. The only thing different is a refill of Armour Thyroid. I checked this site to see if anyone else was experiencing this problem on Armour and am glad to have found this article. I have no clue what to do now since my Naturethroid is no longer available. Too bad the manufacturers do not seem to be held accountable anymore. We are captives of Armour at this point.

          • Hi DJ. Using T4 and T3 is a very good treatment option! One grain of NDT = 38mcg T4 and 9mcg T3. So you can figure out how much of T4 and T3 products to take based on the total amount you are taking now with Armour. Also, two grains = 76mcg T4 and 18 mcg T3, three grains = 114mcg T4 and 27mcg T3. Etc, etc. The provided pill strengths of T4 and T3 will be a little different, so we just get a close to the equivalent amount as we can.

            Do know that what you are taking now as far as Armour needed to produce optimal frees. So if you weren’t yet optimal with those frees, you may need to increase T4 and T3 until you are. Read this very carefully: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

  10. Beverley Henderson says:

    I have been taking thyroid medication for 35-40 years. As a young person I had all the symptoms of low thyroid, but no one would prescribe any meds for me because at that time I always tested in the “low normal” range. Then maybe after 20 years, “they” realized those parameters were too broad and changed them, and I was finally able to get thyroid medicine. But hypothyroidism doesn’t go away. Eventually, I developed a goiter that pressed on my throat enough to cause me to have problems with coughing and choking and I had a thyroidectomy. Now my baseline T4 is zero and though I take 300 mg of Armour Thyroid a day, I still struggle with symptoms, a sluggish body and mind, feeling cold all the time, dry skin and brittle hair, constipation, easy weight gain, and irregular sleep patterns. I noticed some people are taking T3 as well as Armour (or other product) and that the combination seemed to really help some people. And here is my question: I wondered if anyone has tried supplementing their medication with dried thyroid, adrenal, thymus, pituitary, and/or other glandulars that are available through health food stores such as iHerb.com. I have noticed people talk about the effect of cortisol on their thyroid function too. The only time I have ever dramatically lost weight was about 6 years ago. Following knee replacement surgery (the cartilage was gone and he couldn’t walk without pain), my husband developed pneumonia and was sick in the hospital for 10 weeks. I spent every waking minute I could spare from my job and my family with him. He began to recover, but then he developed a second round of pneumonia and passed away. I went to my PCP afterward, and they found that during his illness I had lost 50 lbs. This was certainly the most stressful season of my life, and at the end, I had to bury my husband of 37 years. Since then, things have still been very stressful, but in a different way. I am able to say that I have not gained it all back, but I have gained about 15 lbs. I don’t want to gain any more. It has been a while since my endo ran labs for me, so I want to see him again and talk to him about this idea (maybe). A while ago, he wanted me to go vegan–no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no fish, but I need animal protein to make my brain work. If I ate only foods from plants, I would focus on the carbs and blow up like a balloon. To effectively add desiccated glandulars to my supplements, I need to know how much of what to add. Sources of reliable information and feedback from others who have tried this idea would be very much appreciated. Thanks for listening. I appreciate STTM very much. When I first discovered your blog years ago (this is the first time I have written in), it was wonderful to experience the confirmation and realize that I was not off-base in my perceptions of my experience as a hypothyroid patient. Your words and everyone’s sharing were and are very affirming, reassuring, and confidence-building.

    • L.A. says:

      Hi Beverley Henderson,

      I’d like to know the answers to your questions as well. I’m just tired of relying on doctors to find what works. Let me know what you learned so far?

  11. Amy says:

    I have labs I can share for what it is worth; Nature-throid followed by Armour. I live in the NW, I felt fine on NT and since with Armour. No changes noticeable between these 2 meds (but 2 yrs ago terrible experience with NP).

    Tests were taken in the morning** and I did not take my meds before the test.

    Nature-throid (3g or 195mg)
    FT3 (2.3-4.2 pg/ml) result: 3.7
    FT4 (0.89-1.76 ng/dl) result: 1.2

    Armour (3g or 180mg) – **the first test was taken late afternoon due to mix up. The second taken in the morn as usual.
    FT3 (2-4.4 pg/ml) result: 3.2** second test: 3.6
    FT4 (0.82-1.77 ng/dl) result: 1.6** second test: 1.2

    Janie, Thanks for your diligence on our behalf!

  12. Joanne says:

    Hello all,
    Well I am now on a new regimen of thyroid medication. I wanted to share in case this helps anyone else. Janie: you may not publish this but I am only sharing due to extensive research on my part. I am not recommending only sharing my story and meds journey to feel alive again.
    I am on a compounded thyroid medication as RLC Labs, the maker of WP Thyroid, was recalled by the FDA for sub-potency issues. So I went the compounded route. I have been on it for awhile which was 45 mg of T4 and 9mcg of T3 with Loxoral as a filler using a gelatin capsule as opposed to a veggie capsule.. Being a celiac, I am allergic to certain fillers of which Loxoral is as it has isomalt which is made using yeast to ferment it. Anything ending in ” alt ” means yeast. Celiacs are typically allergic to yeast. I called around to other pharmacies in the states to ask some questions about the sources of the porcine as well as using another filler to top off the gel cap. I found a pharmacy who could use Vitamin C powder as a filler which is corn based. That I can tolerate. I went back to my original pharmacist and asked if he could use Vitamin C, too, as a filler and he said he could. Also, the T3 in the formula had traces of mcc which I am also allergic to. So, my pharmacist called my doctor to change the entire meds. I am now on 65 mg of porcine and he eliminated the T3 as it had mcc in it. I was reacting to even that small amount with typical celiac reactions. There are also a few traces of T1 and T2. I am sharing this as this is as close as possible to the WP I did so well on without the calcitonin, inulin and iodine of which there were small amounts anyway. I have been telling my pharmacist if there was some way to make a ” WP twin. ” I pick up the new thyroid meds tomorrow, Friday, October 15. Since I am sensitive to the gel cap I asked both men if I could take it sublingual thus bypassing swallowing the gel cap plus the gut. We shall see where all this goes. I will keep all informed and if this works I would recommend if you are sensitive to fillers give Vitamin C powder a try. My local pharmacist said he also has other fillers which are non-allergenic along the lines of vitamins should it still not work. Take care one and all….

  13. Joanne Seward says:

    Hi Jay,
    Not too bad….it’s my only recourse as I have to do something..i don’t have a thyroid…cancer in 1992…
    Still did best on WP Thyroid…
    Best to you..give it a try..

  14. Joanne Seward says:

    It could also be they are using bioidentical hormones and not porcine. Also,
    I had an idea to write to the US FDA and ask them about RLC Labs and WP Thyroid. Porcine may be coming from Brazil or Europe…will put that in letter, too…Where is it sourced from?..ugh🤔🥴

    • Eric says:

      Hello, the porcine comes from Europe. The places I tracked down are from Spain, Denmark, and Germany. There is one new source coming from China that actually lists the COA for compounders. I have compounded meds from sources from Europe as well as the one from China. I have armour on hand as well. For me, they all have the same effect. It seems if they are missing the thyroglobulin in it. Having thyroglobulin in the meds, which is a protein, makes it a biologic. The FDA has gotten involved more and in order to have that protein, they have to have a biologic application or new NDA for commercial products. It is that protein is what gives it its magic. (My opinion) However, if it works for you then good. Everyone is different. Make sure adrenals, iron etc are optimal as well.

      I do know that they use solvents, heat in the process.

      • Joanne Seward says:

        Hi Eric,
        Thanks..did not know about the thyroglobulin. Wondering now if not in my compounded meds. Will em my pharmacist. I’m doing so so on my compounded meds but did better on WP because I think the porcine powder is not as good now. Maybe its watered down and also maybe RLC Labs is not making it because they can’t get back the
        ” best ” porcine like they used to have. How do you know if the thyroglobulin is present anyway?
        Also, I have developed tinnitus in my right ear. Is that due to either bring hypo or hyperthyroid? Anyone out there shed light on this…most annoying…
        Thanks in advance.

        • Gail says:

          I found an interesting note on RLC Labs website that states their Thyroid USP supplier is making their product available to compounding pharmacies. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad, given what happened with recalls, etc. Here is a link:
          https://www.rlclabs.com/availability-update.html The pharmacy said it is sourced in the states and they do independent testing on it to make sure it falls within certain parameters. I have been taking a combo of Armour and compounded and after some experimentation I have found that the Armour seems to work better/seems more potent. I am switching to all Armour to see how it goes. I am not quite optimal yet so that may have something to do with my results.
          I do get tinnitus as one of my symptoms of hypothyroid, but sometimes hypo and hyper symptoms can be the same. I would say that something is off, because it does go away for me when I’m feeling good.

          • Eric says:

            I have porcine from “rlc’s” supplier. The lab is in the states but the raw porcine (frozen thyroid) comes from outside the states. I was told that the pigs are no longer slaughtered for thyroids in the US. Thyroids must come from out of the country. I don’t know why, maybe trade deals. This lab is tied to RLC so it raises questions. Best of luck to you.

          • Joanne Seward says:

            Hi Gail,
            I do agree that some symptoms are the same for being either hypo or hyper thyroid. I thought it was my imagination but so glad to read someone else feels the same..they do overlap.

          • Probably the majority of symptoms between true hypothyroid vs hyperthyroid/Grave’s are not the same. True hyperthyroidism/Grave’s can result in a higher heartrate, but most with hypo don’t see a higher heartrate. Instead, a higher heartrate can come when T3 in one’s treatment is revealing a cortisol problem. i.e. you have to have the right amount of cortisol for T3 to get to the cells. Without the right amount of cortisol, hyper-like (not Grave’s) symptoms can happen due to T3 going high in the blood.

            Hypothyroid can result in fatigue, but it’s usually in the later afternoon. Grave’s can cause fatigue, but it can be at any time.

            Grave’s/hyperthyroidism can often cause weight loss. Only a minority with hypothyroidism (not Hashi’s) will see that, as compared to the majority who gain.

            Grave’s/hyperthyroidism can cause heat intolerance. For hypothyroid patients, that can be more about having low aldosterone (which happens with a cortisol problem for many).

            With Hashimoto’s, the swing causing a destruction of the thyroid can cause hyper-like symptoms, which isn’t necessarily Grave’s disease.

        • Eric says:

          The test used to check for hormonal content is called chromatography as the fda no longer wants it standardized using the iodine content. Part of this assay process is to also use a protein eating enzyme to break down the thyroglobulin. My concern is also the use of the many solvents. I wasn’t aware of this until I researched this stuff. I have compounded meds but it feels the same as the armour. As always do what feels right. The meds work for some so I can’t say it doesn’t work at all but it doesn’t for me.

          • Starr D. says:

            Just wanted to bring up something about assaying processes, since you’re one of the few
            people I’ve ever seen talk about it on these sites. I got hit very badly when Synthroid
            was changed by its manufacturer in various ways, in 1982-83 (I was in college & had
            to drop out, because the new Synthroid made me so sick.) Because of how bad my
            health became, I’ve had a several chats with folks at the FDA over the years about
            these thyroid meds. With Synthroid’s changes, they told me that not only had the
            “inactive” ingredients been changed a bit (and this can affect how you use and absorb
            the “active” ingredient of the pill), but that also, the assaying method had been changed,
            going from one based on iodine content to using, instead, the HPLC method (High-Pressured
            Liquid Chromatography.) In the first few years after they changed the assaying method,
            they would assure me that this was a better method than the iodine content one….

            After some years had passed, though, an FDA guy told me that he felt the Chromatography
            method was NOT as good as the iodine content one, but that they wouldn’t be changing back.
            I don’t know if he felt it if the iodine content one was better for just synthetic thyroid meds or
            the natural ones, too, but that was his feeling about it. I wish they’d just left Synthroid alone
            back then, because it’s the only thyroid drug that helped me have some kind of better quality
            of life….I haven’t done well on anything since they’ve changed it. It’s been hard…my best to you.

          • I love your post’s information, Starr.

            By the way, something doesn’t add up that you haven’t done well since then, when most people are doing great if they understand this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal The latter is the goal with a working NDT (Armour still works for many, and NP Thyroid “may” be working again) or with T4/T3, or even T3-only (with an optimal FT3 as the goal).

  15. Joanne Seward says:

    Hi Janie,
    It has been awhile since I have written. I am still on my compounded thyroid medication. It does contain porcine powder. When I have asked my local pharmacist where he gets it from he says PCCA here in the states. I have asked him to ask them where is the source of the porcine from. He says they refuse to say. So thinking maybe it was just this pharmacy in Maryland I called 3 others.
    Same story! So, I took it upon myself to call PCCA directly. A woman answered and I told her everything. She said all I can tell you is that it does NOT come from China. When I pressed her she said,
    ” even I work here and they don’t tell me.” So I told her that raises a red flag. She kind of agreed. Now I am thinking about going in front of our Congress here or something and demanding answers and get it out into the open. Would you happen to know what the secrecy is for?..is it quality, sub par pigs, the country, money, or whatever. This hurts the consumers or the patients.
    Your thoughts…

  16. Mateja says:

    Does anyone else notice mild bladder leakage? I picked up a new prescription of Armour and have noticed a change with my bladder. I am in my 30’s and have never had kids so this is very new side effect for me. Didn’t notice any change in the consistency of the pill though.

    • Angie F. says:

      Not bladder leakage, but I did have IC symptoms for a couple of months pretty badly. I did have a bladder infection, but symptoms persisted a while after abx. Some vaccine pts reported IC symptoms also. What is find interesting is that symptoms resolved on new or different fills.

  17. Harold M says:

    It’s like a never ending nightmare. I have hypo and Adrenal Fatigue. My Armour stopped working and sent me back down the same rabbit hole. I don’t have anything left to climb another mountain.

  18. Katherine Anne Lipp says:

    I have Subacute Thyroiditis, how do I get inflammation from my thyroid to go down, I am on good diet and great shape, and on armour thyroid. I take lots nutrition, and vitamins, all test show I am ok. Not sure what to do next. Had it for 3 months.

  19. Judy says:

    Hi Janie

    Are you still on sigma pharma t3. And how much are you on. Do you find that it’s not as strong as cytomel? I just got my script filled and I like it better then cytomel

    • I am still using it and find it equally as good as cytomel.

      • Audry Cece says:

        How about the generic version, liothyronine? Do you know if people typically have a worse or same experience as cytomel?

        • Even most of the generics can work as long as you’re trying to get an optimal free T3.

          • Hadassah says:

            Janie I was on NT and NP . I no longer trust any of the NDT’s. It’s a shame but that’s how it is. I was originally when I started with T3 on the Paddock T3. It worked well for me. Now it became Mayne Pharma. As far as I know the fillers are still the same. I had TT and have Hashimoto. I have allergies to corn starch Manitol, Lactose.
            What I don’t understand is why these thyroid meds contain fillers that can in many cases cause allergic reactions ? After all they are made for thyroid patients . Why can’t they produce thyroid meds with fillers that have the least allergic reactions for the thyroid patients. I’m very limited as to which thyroid meds I can dose with. The same goes for Synthroid . It has Acai that caused my heart to race. Switching to another brand made a huge difference.
            Thank You Janie For All The Wonderful Things You Do For The Thyroid Community.

  20. Annette says:

    I switched to Armour a few months ago, and recently had labs done with a new endo. I am currently on Armour 60mg.. (previously on Levothyroxin 88mcg and Liothyronine 10mcg). My current labs had TSH at 21.20, Free T4 at .74. She didn’t run any T3 labs at all, and told me it doesn’t matter when you are taking Armour (?!?!) Background history: Total thyroidectomy in 1995 for thyroid cancer. I-131 radiation (150mci) and have kept my TSH suppressed ever since. My TSH has never been above1 in years. Also… breast cancer and mastectomy in March 2021. That is why I asked to switch meds…. I had read that Levo could be related to breast cancer. I am meeting this endo next week. Not sure how to educate her on labs. (She just finished her fellowship and this is her first month as an endo on her own) Any advice would be appreciated

    • Hi Annette. You are severely underdosed on Armour. One grain/60 mg is simply a starting dose from which we raise from by 1/2 grain every two weeks, slowing down somewhere in the two grains area to do the free T4 and free T3. So your labs fit holding on to just a starting dose. And it DOES fit to have the free T3 no matter what thyroid meds we are on. Read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

    • Marie says:

      I just realized the 90mg dose I got from Kaiser 10 days ago is why my nails are peeling, I’m constipated and gaining weight with no change in diet. Almost like it was when I ran out and my DR refused to give exception for insurance! I can’t report this to her, I’ll get an “I told you so”!
      The CVS script from July was good but I can’t afford $55 for 30 day. Aren’t there more than one manufacturer of Armour? I won’t go back to NP thyroid, but what about Nature throid or the W one, sorry my memory is terrible now! I can’t go through this again. I just slept most of the day away and zero energy

      I’m in OC, California

  21. Kim says:

    Just wanted to share my experience. Don’t think Armour is working for me right now. I live in GA and I’m taking 120mg of Armour with 25 mcg of SR T3 from a compounding pharmacy in California. I know SR T3 is controversial and I’ve had issues with SRT3 in the past but NOT with this pharmacy. I’ve been slowly increasing the dose over many months with a coinciding/consistent increase in free T3 levels. I’ve been doing well over the last year until recently. Return of Typical hypo symptoms for me- fatigue, bloating, weight gain, etc. My results from 5/19/21 were
    Free T4 1.0 (0.8-1.4)
    Free T3 = 3.6 (2.3-4.2)
    RT3 = 8
    MD at that time raised SR T3 from 20mcg to 25 mcg
    Results from 8/25/21
    Free T4 = .8
    Free T3 = 3
    RT3 = 7
    Not sure what to do now as I’ve been on synthetic combo before and was doing much better with this combo. 🥲

    • The only issue that could point to Armour is the FT4 dropping from 1.0 to .8. But that may be remedied by raising the Armour.

      And raising slow release T3 from 20 to 25mcg shows a drop in your free T3 from 3.6 to 3. That seems odd. Again, you could try raising the Armour and see what happens.

  22. PJ Thyroid says:

    I’ll add my two cents…. I have been on NDT for over 10 years. in the past, I have used ARMOUR, ERFA, NATURE-THROID, and NP THYROID. i have always used 2.5 grains and my TSH stayed close to 1. My 3 thyroid panels in 2021 showed my TSH almost at ZERO. So, I would say the 2.5grains of NP-THYROID, I’m using, is STRONGER than usual. Another side effect that I noticed, besides near ZERO TSH, on NP-THYROID, is long spiking of my SYSTOLIC blood pressure. It is taking 10 or more minutes for my SYSTOLIC to SLOWLY drop back to normal. Three days ago, I switched back to 2.5 grains of 2013 ERFA (refrigerated) to see if my TSH will increase. My SYSTOLIC seems to be behaving normally now. I feel like a big experiment.

  23. L.A. says:

    I’m on 60mg each day of Armour and am definitely not feeling optimal. At first, I felt less hungry and stopped gaining weight. But now, a couple months later, I am gaining weight and don’t have enough energy, feel dissatisfied with food and am hungrier. Granted, things are crazy stressful at work, but I can’t change that right now, so I wish I could compare to non-stressful times. Any thoughts, Janie?

    And I must say… I’m tired of doctors. What can we do on our own without a prescription? I’m tired of wasting so much time and money with them. Maybe you can do a blog post on it, or maybe I should ask, does healing come to people by just using the right supplements like thyroid glandulars? I really want to no longer depend on doctors. Even if it’s a decent one, which I have, I’m tired of waiting weeks for each appt. just to make hardly any change. I’m suffering now and need help now.

    • LA, 60 mg is just a starting dose that we raise after two weeks, and raise again by 1/2 grain, and again, to get optimal. Staying on such a low dose ends up backfiring back to hypo, thus gaining weight, not enough energy, etc. You need to read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

      • L.A. says:

        I’m sorry, Janie, I’m just finding this! I have spent time a few times on the “Optimal” page and something still doesn’t “click” in me as to what to do in my situation (brain fog, maybe? lol ;). I guess I don’t fully understand..? Does everyone need to increase their Armour from 60mg, or that is just depending on levels?

        If it’s looking like what I need, what do you suggest I do to get my doctor to allow me to try? Maybe show him the “Optimal” page, or something else?

    • Audry Cece says:

      L.A., I could not agree more! I have a natural/good doctor but she wants to test every 8 weeks and possibly only raise me the slightest bit (when I basically beg her.) Since my last apt I have taken it upon myself and doubled how much I take (now up to 120mg of Armour), but now I have to write to her before my next apt and pray she will call me in a new prescription. It’s maddening. Plus expensive to pay for blooodwork every 8 weeks to move at a snail’s pace. I don’t want to feel good in 3 years, I want to feel good ASAP.

      Even good natural doctors online like Dr. Westin Child’s and Mark Haymen’s articles say women only need about 2 grains of Armour. I’m not sure how to make my doctor see that some of us need more than that. Possibly much more! It’s frustrating for sure.

      • And 2 grains will fail to make the ‘majority’ optimal with their frees, thus an eventual crash.

        • L.A. says:

          … Also, Janie… I noticed you mentioned someone else’s ferritin being a concern. Mine was naturally low. I then started taking blood-building supplements and my docs say it’s “fine” now, if that adds to my health puzzle. I also have high cholesterol, low blood pressure, and am naturally low on Vit. D, but I take a LOT so it looks “normal”-ish now. And as I mentioned on another post, my adrenals were looking super low in cortisol production, and now that I returned to work, they were too high, and I’m on a LOT of adrenal-supporting supplements. So far, not feeling much change. 🙁 Sleep is broken, but has been for years. Energy is low all day and then I get a little bit at night when others begin to wind down, but even lately, I haven’t been getting much energy at night either. 🙁

      • L.A. says:

        Hi Audry Cece,

        Sorry I’m just getting your responses! I must’ve missed any notifications. So glad I just started to read through comments again! Sounds like we are in the same boat. Out of desperation, I too have tried doubling my prescribed dose. It seemed to help. I will try again to make sure, but my doc really does not agree. And if I secretly double my dose, I don’t think the pharmacies will refill them so quick, right? I go to Rite Aid. I guess I haven’t doubled them more myself because I’m then afraid of having days where I have none.

        And to verify, a “grain” is the same as 60mg each for Armour Thyroid, right?

        I should say I’m at the heaviest and most sluggish in my life. 🙁

  24. Debbie Bowler says:

    I’m over in the UK but my Armour comes from the USA (California to be precise). I have been taking 3gr Armour for 3yrs with successful results. Just lately I’ve gained weight, bloated, hair falling out, feet hurt, tired and constipated. So definitely hypo symptoms. I took a test and my levels have dropped:

    TSH 0.01 (0.27-4.2)

    FT3 – 4.8 (3.1-6.8)

    FT4 – 12.1(12-22)

    Ferritin 130 (13-150)

    Vitamin D 69 (50-200)

    Folate 16.7 ( >2.7)

    B12 >150 (>37.5)

    I’m working on my vit D but it was even lower at my last test 9 months ago and yet my thyroid levels were higher. I’m on the new armour pill as it looks different and us more crumbly than they were in my last bottle. I’ve raised my armour by 0.5 gr. it’s been 2 weeks and I’m not feeling much better, maybe a teeny weeny bit! How soon do I raise a bit more? Or do I trial levo/t3? Im reluctant to do this as armour worked so well for me in the past but obviously I don’t want fo be unwell

  25. Chris says:

    So I did an experiment. I was recently adjusted in my Armour dose from 2 to 2.5 grains. And I felt ok. However still feeling odd so I have 25 mcg added to Armour. I got my blood work done at 6 weeks so still waiting the results but I feel my reverse T3 might have increased from my 12 with the increase in t4.

    So I went to the pharmacy last week to renew my script and the pharmacy stated they’re having a hard time getting Armour in so I went with NP until they did 2 grains.

    Honestly the NP made me feel more alive , sharp , and energetic and I had less allergy symptoms. Of course I cleared it with my doctor when stating the switch bc I basically had to.

    If NP is back and effective – this could be a huge win for NDT. Remember – abbvie purchased Armour and they screwed up symthroid with all these disgusting fillers. It wouldn’t surprise me if they altered armour thyroid.

    My NP even said the recalls on naturethroid and NP seemed unfair as the sub potency wasn’t in all the lots recalled and most of them had it in t4 which isn’t the engine.

    • L.A. says:

      Chris, have you stayed on NP Thyroid since you last wrote? I had such an awful experience with it, which is odd because my doctor had a history of successes with it in the past for other patients, so maybe I was just trying it around the time of the recalled batches. Has it been great since?

  26. Judy says:

    Janie can you tell me what above mid range would be. Labcorp ranges are
    T3. 2.0-4.4

    So if my t3 is 3.8. T4. 1.33. On the above ranges. Is my t3. In a good place. Or should it be higher. Or does it depend on other factors?


  27. Cat says:

    I used to take armour and it help with fatigue and fogginess. Then a few years ago started armour again and it causes muscle tightness and pain, even with the tiny dose I take. What other medicine should I consider.

    • The answer for you is the word “tiny”. We aren’t meant to be on tiny dose, thus your issues. We have to raise until optimal. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

      • Cat says:

        Thank you for your valuable time. So I used to take it and it did not cause intense muscle pain but I restarted it at 15 mg and my muscle pain and joint pain is intense so I keep quitting it.

        • If it’s truly Armour you are on (there’s an A on the tablet), issues like that happen when we stay on too low a dose. The good results we might have once had backfire due to never being optimal. The individuality is when it backfires. You can always move to T4/T3, or if RT3 is moving up, just T3. But you still need to get optimal.

    • Cat says:

      Thank you so much for your time. Armour years ago would help with fatigue and fogginess.
      Now when I take it at 15mg I get very tight muscles and grinding joints (neck and shoulders etc) and I get foggy so I keep stopping it. The tight muscles are intense makes it hard to focus and do my job and be productive. But when I don’t take it I am exhausted.
      Wanted to add:
      T4 0.9
      T3 Free 2.6
      TSH 3.0

  28. Suze says:

    I just want to report that Erfa is still working well for me. I went back to T4 and T3 for a while and it worked too, but that makes me more hyper, whereas Erfa makes me feel more balanced. I am angry that Cytomel is now $54 and I decided to stay on Erfa, which is covered. Cytomel went generic so you have to pay for the name brand now in Canada. I tried the generic and didn’t like it. On Erfa, I still get these sudden feelings of well-being, even while suffering in the heat wave. At night when it gets cooler I feel I could do anything. That is really all I ask.

  29. Aimee says:

    Does a high reverse T3 & pooling automatically mean that Armour isn’t working/good for me, or is it something specifically wrong with me (iron or cortisol?) I’m on 3 1/2 grains Armour plus 10mcgs of Lio. I’ve never had this issue before on any of the other Ndt’s. My Free T4 is on the low end at 0.90, Free T3 on the higher end at 3.9, and reverse T3 is up to 17.5 using Labcorp’s ranges

    • Hi Aimee. In all of the fair evaluation with Armour, do know that high RT3 is about either low iron, inflammation, or high cortisol. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-ot3

      And a low FT4 with a high FT3 can mean exploring this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/pooling

      • Aimee says:

        Thank you for your response, Janie. Will look into those things and bring them to the attention of my provider. I have been under quite a lot of stress lately (frantic move to a new house in another town earlier this year, the ongoing covid pandemic, facing addiction in my marriage, and the death of a parent this month) so I think those things may have something to do with me feeling poorly & not doing as well as I should with thyroid/adrenal/cortisol balance. It’s a cascade of issues for sure, and I’m starting to understand now how they’re all linked

  30. Liesl Wright says:

    IDK what to do, Janie. I’ve been using OTC thyroid brands for years. Did you know that most of them are sold out of thyroid, due to the pandemic? The only company that isn’t sold out, Nutrimeds, has jacked up their price substantially. Also, the Nutrimed product doesn’t seem to work right anymore. It is what I’ve mostly used for years. I’m not sure what to do. It’s sounds like Armor is really the only option with a prescription and it may not even work. Is the idea to make sure none of these products work so we are forced to take a synthetic thyroid? Help!

    • It is nothing but fear-mongering by certain individuals that this was done purposely with conspiracy to stop us from using animal thyroid. It happened because the only US distributor stopped selling porcine powder around 2017. And we don’t know exactly why due to the ridiculous secrecy out there. So US pharms were forced to find the powder elsewhere. And two admitted they were getting it from “Europe”, but what does that actually mean? Clearly, something was wrong with it.

      Armour has still been reported as working for what appears to be a good % of thyroid patients, which dispels the black and white, attention-getting opinion that “NDT is working for no one” in this current day and time. To say the latter is not paying attention to a full body of patients that includes both camps. Will Armour go bad for all someday? Anything is possible. But it’s not going on at all yet.

      So there is trying Armour if you want to try it and getting those frees optimal, or moving to T4 and T3 and getting those frees optimal, or T3 only and getting the free T3 optimal. 🙂

  31. Ana says:

    I’m following up an earlier comment I made about being one of those still doing well on Armour (150 mg. daily, in split doses). I had thyroid labs done last week, and the results confirm that nothing for me has changed. My numbers have been the same since the fall of 2019: free t3 at the top of the range, free t4 at 1.2 and TSH suppressed.

    I noticed that the lab my doctor has used for 12 years keeps changing the reference ranges. Twelve years ago the free t3 range was 2.9 to 4.2. The bottom of the range has gradually gone down over the years; 2.6, then 2.3 and now 2. The top of the range went from 4.2 to 4.4, which is good. The free t3 range is now 2 to 4.4. The free t4 range was .9 to 1.8 until this last test. Now it’s .7 to 1.5. I don’t know what’s going on, but my free t4 was still 1.2 on this different range. It makes me fear they are going even further in trying to normalize hypothyroid blood levels.

    I’ve wondered if some people might have decreased potency in some batches of Armour because of the heat. Thyroid hormones degrade quickly in the heat, and I question whether the Armour is kept cool enough during shipping.

    Thank you so much, Janie, for digging into this topic. A great help as always!

    • And you are in the company of many others like you…so far. Again, why there’s no integrity is exclaiming it works for no one. lol.

      And who knows if certain batches got heat exposed. Another good guess. We’ll just have to let time go by to figure this out.

  32. Karen H. says:

    Just got my Free T3, Free T4 and TSH back and was chagrined to discover my TSH is over 15 (I usually sit somewhere between less than 1 to much lower than that). Both Free T’s have gone down considerably but still within normal range. I will write a follow-up with ranges soon, but Armour is definitely not working for me. This is really discouraging as it was my last hope in NDTs. Is anyone doing okay on Naturethroid? Cytomel is way too over-stimulating for me. I have ms and can’t tolerate it.

    • Karen, in the spirit of being open to all possibilities, post how much Armour you’ve been on and your last (before the latest test you are mentioning) free T4 and free T3, plus RT3.

      And Naturethroid has been gone awhile since it’s recall. And if Cytomel is too over-stimulating, that can point to this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info

      i.e. this may not be due to Armour changing. So we have to explore the above.

  33. Judy says:

    Hi Janie

    I hope you can clarify which armour thyroid pills are the new and which are the old ones. I had a script filled last September for armour I never took them. This year I had a new script filled and the pills are a bit harder and a very small amount thinner. So for a week I took the ones from last year and I didn’t feel well at all. I got a headache and just too much anxiety. I was just going to stop taking armour all together. But then decided to try the new ones and I have been taking them for a couple of weeks and feel so much better. No headaches, no anxiety.
    I’m confused about which are old which are new. This is the first time taking armour since 2009.

    Hope you can help

    • The problem is that I am getting reports that contradict each other about the pills. The problem can be multi-fold. For one, a change in color can simply be due to a different batch of pig thyroid mixed together as compared to the last batch of powder being used. That’s been known for decades. So color is not definitive in detecting a bad batch of Armour.

      Second, some description of pills fit how Armour has been looking/dissolving/tasting for a few years now. i.e. it’s not anything new, even though for the person reporting it, they think it is. You never know what you are picking up from a pharmacy, what batch a patient had been on awhile, etc.

      Third, some patients go downhill due to having been underdosed. A crash is inevitable when one isn’t truly optimal. And some people totally fail to fully read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

      And a fourth important piece of information: when a brand truly goes bad, the amount of people reporting on has obvious growth. We haven’t yet seen the degree of growth like we have in the past. So we need more time for this to unfold.

    • Judy says:


      Thank you

      Just curious is mannitol a bad thing in a small amount. I notice that sigma pharma t3 pills has it listed as a ingredient?

  34. Sue Prytherch says:

    Can I just ask a question here? Maybe Janie will find it? I am scheduled to have my labs done tomorrow morning at 8:30am. They are usually running late, so the blood might be drawn around 9:15. I usually take my Armour and T3 at around 8:30. Should I take it before I arrive? Or wait and take it after they draw the blood. Just trying to make sure they have an accurate blood draw. Thanks for any response. I appreciate it. …Should I have posted this on your Facebook group? I don’t see how to post a new topic, so I would need to post it under a previous topic posted by Janie? Thanks.

  35. Sue Prytherch says:

    Just an update from me. I have been on Armour for a couple years now. Just picked up my refilled prescription yesterday (7/19/2021). I am located on SW Florida, near Fort Myers. The new pills are thinner (like some have already mentioned) and I think they are slightly more beige colored. The new pills are VERY slightly not white. I will not need to start taking these new pills for at least a couple weeks. Should I change over to them NOW? And see if I have problems? And then I could go back to my “good” bottle of pills, while I figure out what to do next? Of those people thinking the new pills are less effective — what have you done? Changed brands of NDT? or have you gotten your doctor to raise your dosage of Armour? What are the other choices of NDT? I am taking 180 mg. of Armour daily – 90 mg. in the morning and 90 mg. at noon. I was so happy on Armour… wish they wouldn’t do this to us. Sad.

    • That makes sense to me to start now so that you have the former pills to fall back on. But also know that it’s been known for decades that the color of these pills can change depending on the stock of pigs that made the powder.

  36. Sue Prytherch says:

    Just an update from me. I have been on Armour for a couple years now. Just picked up my refilled prescription yesterday (7/19/2021). I am located on SW Florida, near Fort Myers. The new pills are thinner (like some have already mentioned) and I think they are slightly more beige colored. The new pills are VERY slightly not white. I will not need to start taking these new pills for at least a couple weeks. Should I change over to them NOW? And see if I have problems? And then I could go back to my “good” bottle of pills, while I figure out what to do next? Of those people thinking the new pills are less effective — what have you done? Changed brands of NDT? or have you gotten your doctor to raise your dosage of Armour? What are the other choices of NDT? I was so happy on Armour… wish they wouldn’t do this to us. Sad.

  37. Gare says:

    The past 2 weeks I’ve been feeling run down, depressed and sometimes anxious just out of nowhere. Today I saw your post about Armour possibly going bad. I checked the refill date on my prescription and it was 6/29…3 weeks ago. I get a 90 day supply every time so my last refill was around March and I was fine during that time. The timing of everything going downhill coincides exactly with my new refill. I’m bummed with finding this out today, but glad there seems to be an explanation. Not sure where to go from here since I had to twist my doctors arm to just Armour, which turned everything around for me over a year ago. When people say they are still doing well on Armour I think it’s important to know when their last refill was. I was doing great until my last refill 3 weeks ago. I’m tempted to up my dose before seeing my doctor to try to get relief, but I suppose it’s best to get new labs on the same dose for an accurate comparison. For informational purposes – I’m in Texas. Any tips on what I should try for next would be appreciated.

    • Gare, to have the best analysis and exploration of this, you also have to consider if you crashed due to being underdosed i.e. not optimal with your frees. A high percentage of us eventually experience a crash just from not having been optimal with our frees. This doesn’t take away that Armour may have changed in certain batches. But we also have to consider other reasons, too. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

      • Gare says:

        Well I know my labs were good last March and I felt great up until a week after my last refill 3 weeks ago, so it seems to be related to the new refill. But yes, I’ll get my labs again and go from there. Something interesting to note – Last summer i got a bad batch of Armour and went downhill until I got a new refill and returned to normal – so that was a temporary issue with it. I know it was a bad batch because after I got my new refill and started feeling normal again I went on vacation and accidentally took the bad batch with me and I went downhill on vacation. It wasn’t until I got home that I realized I had taken the bad batch – so I know it wasn’t psychosomatic. Hopefully it’s just a temporary setback. I will start paying more attention to the look of the pills.

  38. Ivy says:

    I just think a huge majority of the people saying it hasn’t been working for them have other issues going on like iron/cortisol and inflammation.

    I once thought Cytomel just blankly stopped working for me and when I saw my labs it didn’t make sense as my TSH was super suppressed and free T3 was at 21 lol! So I thought the formula changed because I felt so crappy! This happened to me with Armour before I got on Cytomel! Inflammation lead me to crash and I thought it was the Armour to bad I never checked my labs at that point in time this was 10/2020. This is when Initially ran into a problem with Armour or atleast I thought I did I’ll never know..

    I’m no longer on Cytomel since it has corn. So I haven’t been on Cytomel not Armour for a while now.

  39. Chris says:

    So I keep hearing that the issues with Armour is you may have to go up on your dose if there’s issues on the same one you had optimal results on prior.

    My question is: due to cost and say you were on 120 mg of Armour and your free thyroid hormones went down. Why not go up on NP to 150 or 180 MG ? NP is available and the last recall only had a few lots that were recalled.

    • Some did try upping NP and got nowhere. Others were concerned as to upping whatever was causing a cat piss smell..

    • Chris says:

      I gotcha. Yeah Armour is just too pricey to be on 2.5 grains 🙁 I wish they could offer that in 1 pill. My functional doctor is asking if I’d prefer a compound medication that would save me $30 a month.

      • You can also look at just doing synthetic T4 with synthetic T3…and still get those frees optimal.

        • Chris says:

          Tried it and the synthetic combo doesnt replace the t1 and t2 benefits. I felt constantly bloated from drinking water on synthetic t4 with t3.

          • Use T4 and T3 with Betaine.

          • Chris says:

            Are you no longer a fan of Armour ?

          • There are still a strong body of people whose experience and labs show Armour is working for them, even though there are others that it isn’t. So it’s up to you.

          • Chris says:

            I actually thought about just going on straight t3 to be honest. They added 25 mcg of t3 to my 2.5 grains of Armour. Feel good. It’s just pricey. Wondering if going down on Armour to 1.5 or 2 grains and going up on t3 might work. Get my labs drawn in a bit.

            I think the t1 and t2 and calcitonin are extremely beneficial that you can’t get from synthetics in my opinion.


  40. Karen says:

    I have been taking Armour for many years, and It has always worked for me. But,
    On 4/9/2021 my TSH was 6.13 and T4, 0.8. Doctor up my dose to 90.
    New labs, 7/8/2021 and my TSH is 6.59. TPO, 190 and TbAg, 134.
    (My PC fights me on testing T4 & T3.) Upping my dose again to 120.

    Im not sure what is happening with Armour but 90 mg did nothing, fingers crossed that the 120 will work, as he want to put my on Levothoxine, and I don’t want this…

  41. Ana says:

    The reports of Armour not working are alarming, but you can add me to the category of people who are still doing well on Armour. So far, so good. I’ve taken it on and off since 2004, and I have been on it again since the Fall of 2019. My labs have been consistently optimal during that time. My tablets have been hard since 2019 until the batch I picked up last month. The new ones are softer, and I was happy to find I could absorb them sublingually. I’m going in for labs this week and will report back.

    Philippa, where did you hear that Mannitol has been added to Armour? All the sources I’ve found, most recently updated May 2021, do not show Mannitol or citric acid as being in the Armour formulation. The inactive ingredients are: calcium stearate, dextrose, microcrystalline cellulose, sodium starch glycolate, and opadry white. Perhaps the formula is different in Europe?

  42. Philippa Snowdon says:

    I think I have worked it out. Mannitol.
    “Promotion of elimination of renally excreted toxic substances in poisoning.” This is one of the uses of Mannitol. (found in EMC)

    For some of us, (quite a lot in France, see ‘Merck’ )I believe the addition of Mannitol and citric acid instead of lactose -beware lactose free – causes the mannitol to mistake the main ingredient for poison. When a drug does not work for me, it doesn’t matter how many pills I take. Armour have added mannitol, to make it lactose free and increase the shelf life. For a large number of us that is very disappointing.

  43. Katie says:

    The first time I got a 90 day supply in October all was well. When I got a refill in January, I started getting headaches. I never get headaches usually – I have a very healthy lifestyle. Since I got the 3rd 90 day supply, the headaches have been gone. I absolutely believed there was something different and the visual in this article appears to confirm it. Just wish I knew what it was so I could avoid it again…it’s so hard to know where to go (I was previously on Naturethroid with lots of hair falling out).

  44. Russ says:

    The thickness and color of my old and new prescription is the opposite of what is shown in the pics.
    My old is the thinner one and my new is thicker and also a lighter color.

    • I had to laugh and shake my head. Because these two opposite observations about the pill, just like the two opposite experiences with Armour, are
      EXACTLY why it’s lacking in wisdom to say “Armour works for no one”. lol. It’s akin to taking one of the observations about the pills (the new ones have less depth) and totally ignoring what YOU are seeing, which is the opposite. Thank you so much for posting this. It again and again says “It’s is not smart to make black and white conclusions”. We need more time and exploration.

  45. Arlin Tapper says:

    not familiar with posting comments & where is most appropriate to reply with the Armour thyroid issues but here goes:

    labs from 7/20/20 on 120mg Armour
    Free T3: 4.06 pg/mL
    Free T4: 1.27 ng/dL
    RT3: 24.8 ng/dL

    labs from 6/14/21 still on 120mg of Armour

    Free T3: 3.96 pg/mL
    Free T4: .96 ng/dL
    RT3: 17 ng/dL

    From S. California; not other issue that I know about in regards to B12, Iron, adrenals etc.

  46. Stephanie sanchez says:

    Terrible anxiety I have to meditate 2 hours a day been like this since March or I take a little Xanax. Am on 75 mg of armour

  47. Kathie says:

    You know, 3 months ago when I opened my new script of Armour, some of the pills I took melted under my tongue super fast. I thought I was reformulated, but then the rest of the pills were like the old ones that take forever to dissolve.

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