Is Armour working…or not?

Hello to my fellow hypothyroid-of-any-cause or Hashi’s patients!

Wow, I am steps away from 20 years (!!!) of making my focus about patient-reported experiences, observations, and wisdom!! Blows me away. ~Janie A. Bowthorpe, M.Ed.

Let’s talk about the desiccated thyroid brand called Armour.

I caught wind awhile ago that there seem to be strong, black and white rumors going around in some patient groups that today, Armour is working “FOR NO ONE”. Insert loud obnoxious voice: “FOR NO ONE!!” Black and white. Attention-getting end of story.

But to the contrary, there are opposite reports, too—others whose symptoms or labs prove it’s working for THEM still, even after picking up new prescriptions, one after another, and redoing labs to figure things out. So it’s not yet accurate to say it’s working for no one.

Rumor, rumor

Or there’s the recent rumor mentioned to me that I am “not caught up with what is going on”.  That made me laugh.  I’m still doing the same thing I’ve been doing for near 20 years…listening, evaluating, and reporting on consistent patient reports. The exception is that I’ve been delayed in getting this up due to having a very sick husband due to Agent Orange.

In fact, when anyone states “Janie is not caught up with what is going on”, in tandem with “It’s working for no one”, it’s basically insulting (do they realize this?) the body of hypothyroid patients who report and show excellent lab results and feel goods on Armour even still today. Because what I report is not about “Janie”. It’s about the patients who are reporting what they report. And it is definitely not consistent among patients that “Armour isn’t working for anyone”.

What about those whose labs strongly imply it’s not working like it used to??

It is also a fact, and I’ve seen them, that some have labs that make us very, very suspicious as to what is going on. They now have off-looking labs after having had perfect-looking “optimal” labs. Both!! I caught wind of that many weeks ago but have still been evaluating what I’m seeing from those patients, too, plus delayed due to what’s going on in my private life.

So this all leads to questions about what is going on when another body of patients go downhill on the same amount….

Is it a bad batch or two? Have some patients gotten the bad batch or a changed Armour, while others haven’t yet?? (We saw that happen with previous bad NDTs). Have the makers of Armour fallen to using crap porcine powder not made in the US? Is it just a matter of time?

The bottom line is this…

We do not have all the answers. Why? Because for those who have experienced that something is wrong with Armour (having had optimal labs, then their labs went to pot), others are expressing doing just fine with optimal labs to prove it. This needs to unfold to see….

  1. Why some find themselves with bad labs after having had optimal ones, yet…
    2. Others still have labs which are optimal.

And with that unfolding, it is clearly a reach (watch certain people overreact to THAT! lol) to state that at the current time, it works for “no one”. In fact and as stated, there is also still a clear body of people who have an optimal free T4 and free T3 on Armour with labs to prove it. That’s also why Stop the Thyroid Madness has a page about the gray areas of our experiences and observations.

Want to open-mindedly investigate all this?

Here’s what you can do so we can have better answers:

1) Keep an eye on your labs while on Armour to see which camp you fall in.
That’s the free T4 and free T3, and comparing a before optimal set of frees to an updated one. BUT, it won’t be a strong comparison if you weren’t optimal before. If you have a midrange free T3, or a free T3 just above midrange, it does eventually backfire with fallen frees. Years of experiences have shown that for the majority. The individuality is when it backfires. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal Instead, the strong proof that Armour may have changed is when someone used to be optimal, then new labs on the same amount aren’t showing it at all anymore. I wish I knew the name of the guy who first revealed this to me weeks ago to thank him.

2) Watch your Reverse T3. (RT3) If RT3 goes above the bottom area of any range, it will become impossible to become optimal with your free T3 and free T4 over time. Then a backfire somewhere down the line. Here’s info about the RT3: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3

3) If you can, ask if there is a batch number you can be aware of for your latest prescription. Or another idea is that if you fall in the camp that once had truly optimal frees, but have them no more, let others know if you tried to raise Armour or not to get out of your current mess.

4) Report back to this post as to what you are seeing, discovering…
without making black and white pronouncements that insult other’s experiences that are the opposite.

By the way…and bottom line

It’s also okay to use synthetic T4 with synthetic T3, or continue to use Armour if it’s working for YOU, or EVEN start it and watch those labs! You can still use this wise patient information in either use: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

Addendum: The bottom line message in this blog post is that it has clearly been an overreach to state it’s “working for no one!” at this early stage in patient expressions and questions as to what might be going on with Armour. All the latter is the point being made here. And NEITHER are we in a race. Is it possible that Armour will be better proven to have gone downhill? Of course. But let’s have more integrity in our approach about this, which I have always valued in my own approach as a Thyroid Patient Activist, because at the current day and time, it’s not yet as clear what is going on for “most” like it was with Naturethroid, WP, and NP. We are in a suspicious and exploration phase!

Important notes: All the information on this website is copyrighted. STTM is an information-only site based on what many patients worldwide have reported in their treatment and wisdom over the years. This is not to be taken as personal medical advice, nor to replace a relationship with your doctor. By reading this information-only website, you take full responsibility for what you choose to do with this website's information or outcomes. See the Disclaimer and Terms of Use.

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108 Responses to “Is Armour working…or not?”

  1. Jen says:

    Hi there,
    I switched from Naturethroid to Armour recently & hypo symptoms started right back up. I read on another STTM post about grinding Armour into a powder & mixing it with a smidge of sugar. I started doing that & noticed an immediate improvement. I had my labs run & my dr raised my dose slightly. Grinding it up & raising a little bit has made a world of difference. I do think there must be something about the solid pill that is hard for me to digest. If you are having a similar issue, you could try these 2 things & see if they help you.

  2. Josanne Vandekerkhove says:

    I had some old leftover 120 mg that the pharmacy accidentally gave me of my Armour Thyroid RX. I compared the smell of those with the new ones and there is no blood smell in the new bottles! Ugh! I was finally feeling normal again and now it’s back to symptoms and the taste is like eating powder with no iron taste anymore. That is usually how I tell if it’s potent or not. This new batch is crap! Why do they keep changing this upon us and why do they keep taking away vital meds for us like all the other NDT pills such as Westhroid!??

  3. Karen H says:

    Is there any downside to crushing the Armour Thyroid tablets and swallowing them crushed with water to try for better absorption? Thanks!

  4. Jen says:

    I started Armour 2 weeks ago after being on Naturethroid for several years. So far, I do not feel well on it. If anyone has felt better on it after raising, could you share how much you raised it by? I have read of people having to raise it as much as 60 to get back to feeling normal again.

    • Jen, how much are you on?

      In a fair exploration of whether your current Armour is working, or is not working, it’s also important to know about being optimal, and to see if you can achieve it. Have you read this: https://stopthethyroidmadneess.com/optimal? It’s important.

      As far as raising, it’s individual what amount will achieve what is in the optimal article above.

  5. Brenda L Dean says:

    I have had a thyroidectomy in 2009, I have yet been optimal. I was however feeling pretty good on the Armour until November 2020 when I started feeling like I was on the crazy train, I had no focus, I was angry and irritable, my joints hurt, I had zero drive to do anything. I dropped back 1/4 grain taking me to 2 1/2 grains and I seemed to feel better but still not quite right. Now as time has gone by I am right back to the angry, irritable, non sleeping, painful joints that I had back in November. Out of no were I hit the wall the other day, if you even considered looking at me wrong I would take your face off, and after I did I felt like crap for doing it, I have joint pain, anxiety to the extreme, my entire body shakes internally, I can not hold a focused thought or conversation. I have requested to change over to synthetic however I am concerned on how long it is going to take for the synthetic to kick in. From what I am reading it is 6 weeks for Synthroid to work and 2-3 days for Cytomel to take affect, so what do I do in the in between time why I wait for these to start working. And then there is the Dr. who has no idea what dosage to give me so she started me out at 112 of Synthroid and 2.5 of Cytomel 2 times a day. I have no idea if this is correct, I feel like I am about to go on a miserable ride here that I can not control and truthfully I don’t know of it was even the Armour that created the issue to begin with

    • Hi Brenda. Sorry you are going through this. Since you admitted to not being optimal, it actually sounds like you just crashed due to not being optimal. It appears the majority of us do eventually crash from maintaining a non-optimal dose. The individuality is when. And it’s also suspicious that you have a cortisol problem from not being optimal. So in the spirit of exploring all aspects of this topic, you might want to explore this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info If the info on the page makes you suspicious as well, you’ll see a link to order a saliva cortisol test, too. If you do now have a cortisol problem, you can treat it (see chapter 6 in the updated revision STTM book), then try raising again.

      And none of the latter means you can’t switch over to the two synthetics, But doing so won’t change the cortisol problem is you do have one now from being underdosed.

  6. Amanda says:

    Add another in the happy with Armour because it’s working for me camp! I was once given generic NDT instead of Armour and it was awful – I had to tell the pharmacy they can’t do that ever again even if it might save me $$ I’m happy to pay for what is working!

  7. Renee says:

    I’ve been on Naturethroid for about 7 years but was switched to Armour last September after having a partial thyroidectomy (naturethroid became impossible to get in my area). Things felt really good and on point this past spring and I was so hopeful that Armour would be great for me. About a month ago I started noticing familiar issues with unregulated thyroid issues (hair loss, brittle nails, crushing fatigue) so I had labs drawn two weeks ago. My TSH was 0.03 and my T3 was 4.8. I’d just gotten this email two days prior and decided I wasn’t going to mess around anymore and had my practitioner prescribe Synthroid. I’ve been on it for almost a week and am looking forward to my next labs (and feeling more human)!

    • Renee, I think you better read this before assuming that Synthroid was a good choice: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/t4-only-meds-dont-work

      Also, it’s worth exploring that you’ve been underdosing armour, and thus experiencing the crash. The The vast majority of us end up crashing if we were never optimal with our frees.

      And it’s also worth exploring that your higher free T3 may be the result of now having a cortisol problem due to having been underdosed, plus once on naturethroid. Free T3 will go high in the blood, not making it to the cells, due to a cortisol problem. Explore this page carefully in the investigation: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info

    • Cathy says:

      You could try adding T3 to the Armour and then slowly increasing the dose by 5 mcg every week until u get to maybe 50 mcg if u can tolerate it. Then you can switch the Armour for T4/Synthroid maybe at a starting dose of 50 mcg. Just an idea as am by no means an expert and am struggling myself.
      I slowly added T3 to my Armour planning to do the above and then my doctor suggested an all T3 regimen. I did not experience the rough transition I had expected when i replaced the 2 grains of Armour with additional T3. (Was on 2 grains of Armour with 50 mcg of T3) I had been expecting to feel terrible for the transition. I actually felt relief as the horrendous migraines that i only had on Armour finally stopped and i had a bit more energy. However, an all T3 regimen also has challenges and I am still struggling to become optimal and considering eventually adding Tirosint.

  8. Rae Sanders says:

    I have been losing energy and hunger steadily since January. My labs were optimal in December, and I was taking 3/4 of an armour thyroid 90mg pill, which I have been on for 4 years since NP thyroid quit working. Since January, I have started feeling increasingly tired and losing hunger. I did not consider that the armour thyroid was the issue until I saw the recent posts and video. However, I realized my fatigue corresponded to when I got a newer batch of armour in January (my insurance will not cover so I purchase a 90 day for $140 via CVS mail order.)

    To investigate, I decided to use the extra pieces I had left from the pre-January bottle. Taking 3 of the 1/4 remnants over the past 4 days, I have immediately noticed a difference. I was able to lightly exercise the past 2 days, less brain fog, and less constipation.

    I am excited that I might have found a contributor to my energy decline, but now so uncertain what to do?!! I don’t have many of the pieces left. NP thyroid is out, now armour is out? Where do we go?!!

    Synthetic? or compounding!! Golly, I know the world has been upended by COVID, but it’s not like our NDT struggles are new. This is getting old. I just want something that works so I have enough energy to not need to take a nap 4 hours into the day.

    • Rae, there is a possibility to explore….that you simply need to raise the current armour and see what happens.

      You see, we have learned twice over the years that when the makers of armour change the coating, or change the pill press, we discovered we needed to chew it up to get good results, or in some cases, raise it, or both.

      • Rae Sanders says:

        Thanks for insights. I was taking the full 90mg before, but my doctor (a naturopath!!) thought my TSH was too low and lowered to 3/4ths, but even after lowering, I still felt okay until the newer batches.

        Took the last of the remaining ‘good’ pieces today, sigh.

        The issue is that I also have anxiety, so when I do feel hyper if I raise, it’s rather uncomfortable. At this point, I would rather just maybe switch to synthetic T4 + T3 to get some stability/predictability, NDT over the past decade has been a constant struggle (except those glorious several years when WP thyroid was just great).

        Do we ever consider dosing by weight? I’m 5’5″ and ~115 pounds. Have actually lost weight since armour quit working well, because I get constipated and then feel too bad to eat.

        Thanks as always.

  9. Amber says:

    I’m a complete thyroidectomy. I’m new to Armour as of 2 months ago. Starting dose was 120. I was on 150 mcg of Synthroid prior to. Honestly, I didn’t have a lot of issues with Synthroid other than some mild brain fog. I heard Armour may help with that so I’ve decided to try it. After 1 month my TSH dropped to 0.13 and my free T3 was 4.4. My dose has been dropped to 90 for the past 2 weeks. My complaint is this ridiculous ocular problem. Feels like blurry vision. What is going on? I’m ready to go back to my Synthroid but get nervous about no T3. HELP!

    • If armour was dropped due to the low TSH, biggggg mistake. It is perfectly normal for the TSH to go quite low with T3 in our treatment.

    • Shelley Ross says:

      I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. After TT I had Follicular and papillary cancer with spread to lymph nodes. I was told suppressing TSH for first 5 years was important to prevent a recurrence of the cancer.

  10. Eric says:

    I’ve been in contact with Allergen. The medical information department doesn’t even know where the ingredients actually come from according to the person I’ve spoken with on several occasions. They are only told it’s made in the states in Cincinnati. The quality control person told me a bit more by stating it used to come from China but they stopped it. According the another person working at Allergen the pigs that they use come from Canada, Mexico and Europe. I went on the USDA website and found tons of information; long story short it’s all about trade with China. So most of all pig and the parts we don’t eat are sent out of the states. For those of you that it works for I am glad it does. That is a positive that we all need to see. I tried again and it is really weak. I have taken it for over a decade. Prior to this last try it would give me all kinds of symptoms. I am in Texas. Janie, thank you and keep doing the good things you’re doing.

    • Interesting and crazy information they gave you. And schizophrenic!! We are in crazy times.

    • Linda says:

      Humana, supplemental pharmaceutical coverage, stopped paying for Armour prescriptions & insisted on sending 90 tablets from their pharmacy with a bill of $160.00. I can’t take the pills at all. The side effects are severe itching, head to toe, and hair falling. I’ve cut the pill in half, even in quarters, taking 1/2 or 1/4. Doesn’t matter. side effects are the same. I assume I’ve received a bad batch. Has anyone had the same problem? (My last labs were good, not optimal, but no side effects. I’ve called my physician and I’m going to the pharmacy to pick up more Armour to see if the side effects are the same.)

      • $160 for only 90 tabs?? That’s crazy. And it sounds like blackmail i.e. “We won’t pay for Armour prescriptions anywhere, but oh, you can get it at OUR Humana pharmacy.” Your symptoms sound more like a reaction to a filler, but since it’s a new bottle, it does make you wonder. Do the tabs have an A on them?

  11. Dawn says:

    Hi Janie,
    I hope you are well. In your educated opinion, how long do you think this is going to go on for? I remember well when Armour changed hands in 2009 and it did not work. I switched to NP and did so well on it. Armour came back, but it was never the same. I know this seems to cycle around every decade with issues with NDT, but I would have thought now over 2 years into this one, that it would have been resolved, and we’d all be back in our piggy bliss. There seems to be no end to this. Any thoughts on this? Just looking for a glimmer of hope. Thanks so much. Stay well.

    • Hi Dawn. I seriously have no idea how long this will be happening, or even why we have two opposite experiences among patients for awhile now. But the hope from the past sits in the fact that 2009 Armour improved eventually for several years. It strikes me that the pharmaceuticals need to be better
      informed in order to examine what they may be doing to some of their tablets.And the other hope is that we do have T4 with T3 that works well.

      • Dawn says:

        Thanks Janie. I wish I had a crystal ball! This is beyond exhausting. I started Sigma Pharm T3. Having terrible headaches and conversations on repeat in my brain. Weird side effect. I have no choice but to continue with this. I know there’s worse fates in life, but something so unbelievably prevalent as thyroid disorders, you would think it was a piece of cake for these doctors and pharmaceutical companies to help manage the disorders. I’m a nurse, and sadly I do not trust MDs. It’s a needle in a haystack to find one that would just give you 5 minutes to really listen.
        Continued good health to you, and enjoy the summer! Thanks for all that you do! <3

  12. Janet says:

    Hello! I received a new script this week and started it today – noticed that the pills are different. So of course I don’t have labs or symptoms to report yet. But here’s details on the pill differences. They are more tightly compact, seem to have a coating. Whereas the old pills were more fragile, loosely molded and you could see the wear and tear from bumping against each other. Old were easier to bite and dissolves quicker. I have pictures but I don’t see an option to load pics. You can see a slight difference in width, color and height. The most obvious is the new pills are perfectly shaped as well as the logo – the old pills are warn and the logo is waring off. I think they smell pretty much the same. Didn’t think to taste when I took them this morning, I usually try and avoid the taste but I’ll report back on taste when I take my afternoon dose.

    • Very interesting. Thank u!

    • Judy says:

      I have to agree with all of what Janet has said I did get a 90 day new script filled. I compared the old pills to the new pills I will say the smell is different. The old oils are more porky. Stronger pork smell to them and softer. The new ones seem to have a coating they are harder and the smell isn’t as strong. There’s a slight pork smell to them. I took the old and new pills. And crushed them with a spoon olds pills just crumble. The new pills are very hard didn’t crumble as easily. So I taste the new pill. It does taste different not very porky at all. Unlike the old one the strong porky taste there. No cat pee smell Thank goodness. But. The new armour pills seem to have a coating making them harder and less pork smell So something has change. Whether or not it has affected their potency only Time will tell. I haven’t started them yet. Still taking the old ones

    • Janet says:

      Janie, is there a way I can send pictures? I noticed I can’t share them on your Facebook posts as well.

  13. Dina Ciccone says:

    Labs from Armour, one year apart. I have been on 122.5 mg for a few years since NP reformulated and messed me up. I do have some older tablets which I am going to examine under a microscope. Let me know if you want me to send you and example of those that worked and those that did not.

    T4,FREE + TSH 07/15/2020 (#2837115, Final, 07/14/2020 9:22am)
    Report Result Ref. Range Units Status Lab
    THYROXINE, FREE (FT4) 0.83 0.80-1.73 NG/DL Final
    TSH 0.024 0.234-4.020 UIU/ML LOW Final

    TSH+FREE T4-224576-P 07/02/2021 (#3471267, Final, 07/01/2021)
    TSH 7.650 0.450-4.500 UIU/ML ABOVE HIGH NORMAL Final 01
    T4,FREE(DIRECT) 0.54 0.82-1.77 NG/DL BELOW LOW NORMAL Final 01

  14. Jerry says:

    I have been on Armour since Nov. 2020, after being switched due to unavailability of Naturethroid, which I was on since 2018. Prior to that I was on Synthroid since the late 1990s and had experienced elevated blood pressure. My labs in May were very similar to previous labs on NT and I can say at this time, Armour is working well for me. Just a little background, I have almost no thyroid function at all and am entirely dependant on supplement. I take D3 but NO OTHER MEDS and I have no other health problems. I do not consume alcohol, soda or other sweetened drinks and maintain a diet rich in fresh fruit, vegetables and lean meats, avoiding processed foods as much as possible. If it is not working well for some, it can be other medications, not being optimal or other issues described on this site. As always, some healthy skepicism is in order when statements are made that seem greatly exaggerated. Employees of competing brands may be responsible and those manipulating stock prices love to start rumors. But of course, we are all different and it may not work well for some, particularly if they are using hard illegal drugs, which is an exploding problem throughout the world. And in my decades of service as a firefighter, heavy drug users are LEAST likey to tell the truth. Even if there are studies on the effect of illegal drugs on thyroid patients, they are quite likely out of date as the illegal drug market is rapidly changing and the poison on the street today is far more potent than it was even 5 years ago. And that is before they put insecticide or rat poison in it to get even higher. Be skeptical!

  15. Susan Siens says:

    After being on NP Thyroid for years the latest batch of crap caught up with me (I was losing my memory). I switched to Armour and immediately began feeling better. When I had taken Armour in the past it didn’t work well whether I chewed or swallowed it, and if I put it under my tongue it just sat there. It must be the reformulated Armour because now it dissolves under my tongue even better than the NP did though it’s not sweet. My numbers are okay; my prescription is for 5 grains daily, but I only take 4. Unlike many hypothyroid patients I have never had digestive difficulties; I think all my own thyroid hormone went to my gut and my brain, and i had a very fast digestive system (have learned to eat a fairly high-fat diet to combat that). I avoid the fifth grain due to it speeding up my digestion and I’m still working on raising my cortisol. If the chiropractor does a good job on me, he stimulates my adrenal nerve which helps tremendously. So for right now Armour is working. I tried synthetic T3/T4 many years ago when my cortisol was just fine, and it did not work for me, but it seems like the only option if I run into bad Armour.

  16. Judi C says:

    I’m reading The Thyroid Reset Diet and by Dr. Alan Christianson. His website states that ALL NDT comes from one source in the USA. With RCL Labs out of production and Armour and NPThyroid having recalls and issues too…..doesn’t this point back to the source of the porcine powder? Even though my numbers are better, I still don’t feel well and I have tried levothyroxine. I can’t take it. If I can’t get NDT, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I am going to try the Thyroid Reset Diet and see if that helps. FX.

  17. Stephanie says:

    I’m new to the group and using Armour. I’ve used Synthroid for over 12 years and was never able to regulate my tsh while taking the medication. I’ve chosen to find a 2nd opinion and begin Armour. It’s been one month, and labs are due soon. What can I expect with numbers and my symptoms.

  18. Maggie says:

    Armour seems to be working for me…at this moment anyway. I just picked up a new 90 day supply and am now fearful that things may not go well. Still seeking a doc in NH who will agree to a free T3 in the upper range. Current doc squawks that “you tsh is already suppressed”. Uh…isn’t that the goal?

  19. Ann says:

    Good Morning Janie,

    Thank you for addressing the current state of what MIGHT be happening with Amour. I switched when I got the recall notice about my NP a few months back. I have been slowly working my way up but started feeling the hyper like symptoms. I just had my saliva cortisol checked and it shows very high morning cortisol which explains a lot.

    My question is if all the other levels throughout the day are where they should be would you use the supplements on your page about high cortisol in the morning or at night before you go to bed? Specifically I wanted to use the Phosphatidyl Serine.

    Thank you for all you do and I hope you and your husband find peace and healing!

    • Ann says:

      I should add to my above question: The reason for my confusion is that on the high cortisol page it states you would take PS an hour before your saliva test shows the high but when I read your personal journey with high cortisol you had said you as well had a high morning cortisol and dosed with PS the night before so I was just wasn’t sure as to when to actually take it to do the most good. Any insight you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again….you and this site have helped me so much.

  20. Jen says:

    Who here is on Levothyroxine and Cytomel/T3 and doing well? My husband and I are SO FRUSTRATED with the weight gain and hypo symptoms on Armour and Sigma Pharm. I hate chemicals and love a totally organic life but we don’t know what else to do. Curious how many people were on NDT and doing horrible who switched to Levo and are feeling better. We are so desperate that I’ve been scouring the internet for overseas sources and willing to try anything!!!

    • Many people are doing well on T4/T3. We We do seek to make sure we get optimal though. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

      • Rae Sanders says:

        I see on the website (and in the book I have!! old version though), there is info about switching from T4 to NDT and from NDT to T3, but I haven’t seen switching from NDT to a T4+T3 combo.

        Anyone do this successfully and/or know of a translation? How much and when to take? (Especially for those of us who experience incredible fatigue in the second half of the day?) Hugs to all of you!!

  21. Crystleyz42 says:

    I know my iron is great bc I’m under tight monitoring by a hematologist (ferritin HgB) every 3 months.

    Was on what turned out to be a bad batch of NP roughly Jan-April 2021 (I get large refills). The notice came from Walgreens that I was part of the recall and I got in w doc early May. Switched to Armor 180mg. Follow up 6w later? T3 was bottomed OUT. 1.8 and the bottom of the range was 2.4.

    I’m trying synthetics now. I just can’t w this NDT insanity any longer. I was part of the NP recall in 2019. Not again! No more poor quality control!

  22. Dr Edna Hirsch says:

    I am thankful to Janie and this website. Have been coming here on and off for many years. Hashimotos hypothyroid.
    Over the years have been mostly on Armour, then ERFA when things went down hill with Armour. Back on Armour for about a year.
    Recently had a new prescription filled and have been feeling crappy. I looked at the container and realized that it now says Allergen and not Forest Labs. Hmmm. I wonder if that matters. Forest is owned by Allergen but they could be using different sources.
    Cant make it through the day and I have to use a supplemental older pill from ERFA to make it through.

    • Tommy says:

      Susan – You said you took 1 gr of what? at 4:30 AM and it put you out….I really must know what that is that puts you out at 4:30 that is not a benzodiazepine. I also wake at 4:30 and don’t like it. Please get back to us.

      • Waking up at 4:30am can be the result of stress the day before, I have noticed in me.

      • Susan says:

        1 grain(60 mg armour). I get up to pee @4:30 am, then take a grain and lay back down til around 11:30 am and get up and take a second grain Armour and can go back to sleep again if i dont need to do anything. Then my last grain is around 7:30 pm. The armour, for me, is like a sleeping pill. It could be a lot of things not related to armour. I wrote a novel explaining but prolly not the right place for it here.

        • Tommy says:

          woW. On its face, it seems counterintuitive to take any form of thyroid formulation before
          either turning in or napping. However, when I take NDT – even in the morning – I tend to feel a little
          crashy even though I am more alert than without it – I want to nap – which I do on the weekends.
          It is kind of a weird sensation of increasing alertness, yet with a relaxing effect.

          I had been taking Thyroxine Sodium with less than poor results – I actually felt 100%
          worse than not taking it. Should work in theory because my own TSH is within range with ferritin &
          Fe saturation not in a bad range (w/ KI in the form of iThroid). I’m convinced that a pure T4 formulation
          is not the way, at least not for me, anyway.

  23. Susan says:

    Im one who was on NP when it started smelling like cat pee. I switched to armour and was complaining about it from day one. Ive lifted weights 3 decades and have gained 50 lbs, skin is painfully dry, zero energy. Im taking 3 grains armour.i was taking 2 grains and 20 cytomel but feel cytomel hits fast, lasts two hours, then its gone. Switched to all armour-zombie.

    The good thing about armour is, its allowing me to sleep.

    I have had severe insomnia since i started down the thyroid path in 2010. Only when i finally got iron up and took hydrocortisone, was i able to sleep, but this was on cynomel only. When i weaned hydrocortisone i developed shooting adrenaline, fear and anger and completely unable to sleep, at all, so was out on ativan on ER, so ive been back on hydrocortisone since 2013 which i do not like! I also have had to take ativan to sleep. I am working on weaning ativan.

    But, i wake at 4:30 am every morning, get up and take 1 grain and it puts me out like a light.better than ativan. Also, when i wake around noon, i can take second grain and go back to sleep for another couple of hours

    Thats great! Yet I worry about when im off ativan, about my energy. Also, the weight gain. Ive been injuring myself a lot lately. My knee is cracking when i walk and had to have major rotator cuff surgery since on armour.

    Armour also causes me bad heartburn,just like np. Inever had that issue with it. I took armour in 2015. And i took naturthyroid in2013-2015 and maintained a low weight. It was when i was switched off naturthyroid that i really gained noticeable weight. Like someone else mentioned. When optimal, i was able to eat anything i liked and didnt gain or lose. Naturthyroid was the best for me.

    Was thinking, if allergen bought armour, maybe theyre adding t4 to it to save money?

    Was thinking about trying some ndt from new zealand? it feels like such a conspiracy. When optimal, i feel like a million bucks. Now, im walking around in a haze. Almost threw my glasses in the toilet type of out of it!

    Labs perfect. Iron fine. Im taking 20 hc still. I use the io groups

  24. chris phillips says:

    it took armour to get me back in normal range…i had been on nature throid for years and
    armour worked so much better, i could cut my dose even. i wish it cost less but it sure
    is superior.

  25. Sharon Hagen says:

    The only time I’ve been able to remain optimal was on the OLD WP + Cytomel. WP had only 2 fillers, inulin and coconut sourced medium chain triglycerides. All other NDTs and synthetic T4s and T3s contain more fillers.I had an instantaneous positive response to WP, almost immediately felt like “my old self” after years on various T4 replacement plus Cytomel. and without changing diet or exercise, lost 35 lbs, so I was then only 10 lbs above my lifetime stable weight (I ate healthily but as I pleased and had never needed to diet), which is good for bones and health when one is older. When WP became unavailable, first I tried a compounded T4+T3 and had a drastic fail according to my labs. I know I can’t digest many forms of cellulose well, told the compounding pharmacy not to use it but they used it anyway. So then my doctor switched me to NP Thyroid + Cytomel at an equivalent dose. I never felt well on NP and my RT3 started to rise and my 24 hour cortisol tests showed rising levels 24/7. I was in a stressful situation but blamed part of the stress on being under-medicated though I couldn’t get labs to prove it. I was still adjusting NP when the lockdown happened and I could neither see my doctor nor get new labs. I only feel well if my FT3 is at the top of the range or …if they will let me…a point or two over. My FT4 needs to be just above mid-range. That’s where they were and remained stable there on the old WP + Cytomel, for several years, when my cortisol, rT3, and other labs were fine..
    I gained weight, had a low temperature, and felt awful on NP even with my usual dose of Cytomel. When I got the notice that the batch of NP I was on had been recalled for sub-potency, I was not surprised. I had a telemedicine appointment with my doctor, who decided I should get labs in her office because that would be safer and she was starting to see limited patients with strict protocol. (I usually went to Lab Corps so I could make sure the time of day was always the same)I When the labs came back, WALLA ! FT4 and FT3 very low for me and rT3 high at 20. I also did a 24 hour cortisol test and my levels were even higher than before….not surprising since I had to begin a lawsuit against my landlord and move mid-pandemic. My doctor switched me to Armour at the same equivalent dose I’d been on with WP and NP and same Cytomel I always need…25-30 mg since 2009 regardless of T4 source, the lower with NDT. I took herbal compensatory supplements for the high cortisol and still do : AM I take NeuroCalm by Designs for Health and PM I take Cortisol Manager Allergen Free by Integrative Therapeutics, both prescribed by my doctor. After 2 months on that original dose of Armour I had new labs. My FT4 and FT3 were still too low and rT3 still at 20. My Armour dose was raised from 120 mg to 135. I didn’t feel any better and the only difference I noticed between the NP and Armour was that a persistent rash went away, a rash that I found people had reported as associated with NP on Drugs.com. After 8 more weeks I had new labs and my FT4 and FT3 hadn’t gone up significantly and were still not optimal (FT3 3.6 (2.0 – 4.4) FT4 direct 1.13 ( .82-1.77) though my rT3 had fallen to 15.4, still not good but better. Did this mean that Armour wasn’t working for me ? I don’t know, it certainly seemed like I should have had a better increase in my levels and not even close to how I felt on the old WP.

    At this point I’m not quite 2 weeks into T3 only protocol. I titrated onto it with a night time dose of Armour plus Cytomel with 2 more doses of Cytomel and SigmaPharm during the day at replacement value for a week and have been on T3 only for 2 days. Using the SigmaPharm (which I found weaker and not as good as Cytomel for me when I tried it, but had a lot in a vacuum sealed ziplock in the fridge) wasn’t optimal but Cytomel is so expensive even when ordered from Canada and I was almost out. My new refill of Cytomel arrived today and now I will be on Cytomel only for a month and then retest. I will be watching this blog over that time to see others reports. I am hesitant to go back on Armour given the lack of significant rise in lab levels…certainly not optimal for me even with the extra 25 mcg Cytomel…..and will discuss with my doctor. When I went from Synthetic T4 + Cytomel to WP, I felt that the T1, T2, and calcitonin had an added benefit, but maybe it was just the low and non-irritating fillers. My doctor has hypo herself and she switched herself from NP to a combination of Tirosint and Cytomel and feels fine. Meantime I have edema and am hauling around an extra 20 lbs, 10 of them added after my Armour dose was raised. Time will tell. I’ll check back in if you want me to.

  26. Karen Bice says:

    I was on Armour for years then switched to NP Thyroid. I held on to NP and have been feeling great after the recalls. However, four months ago I decided to try Armour again & asked my Dr. for the switch. I slowly worked my way on Armour (90mg. NP, 30 mg. Amour) increasing the Armour until it was 100%. I gave it a couple of months on full Armour and felt horrible. I must have received some of the bad batched. Thus, I worked my way back to NP Thyroid. I still have some Armour left, and I guess I keep it for emergency back up.

  27. Teri says:

    Have been on 60 mg. Armour since March and its been effective and working for me, just had bloodwork a few weeks ago.

  28. sam says:

    anyone here taking nutrimeds, thyrovanz or thyrogold?
    the white colored one seem to not work [thryogold used to work then didnt a few years ago ] thank you jamie and everyone here is how ifound out about thyrovanz worked great then which then also stopped working!

    the nutrimeds seemed to work but only the dark color ones also anyone know if for sure is from new zeland and not argentina or texas?[ GMO feed , glyphosate ]

    anyone take ancestral supplements? they a re dark color thyroid ] i read someone tested it and high levels glyphosate afteid to take them anymore if no glpyphsate woudl go back to that or add to nutrimneds or thryovanz thank you very much for any help

    • Danielle says:

      Sam I take Ancestral NDT, I feel better on one pill but can’t take more than that. I recently tried to switch asked for Armour doc sent over NP Thyroid 15mg script( along with my regular T3 script), I said whatever I will try it.

      I was on it 3 weeks. Horrible! Hot flashes, headaches, shakes so bad made driving a no go at times, severe insomnia, normal tired. Ran labs to see what was going on and quit after that. Labs came back with my lowest Free T4 ever, it took a nosedive, but T3 and reverse T3 came back optimal for the first time in my life! Tsh the same just under .5 which is normal when I supplement. So NP Thyroid is missing T4 completely from what I could tell, filled June 8th 2021.

      Back on Ancestral and T3. Within 2 days my body calmed. I can tell I am not optimal but at least the shakes, headaches, hot flashes, and insomnia are gone.

      We are Ancestral fans in this house, their other products work. But never lab tested them to see the contents.

      • sam says:

        thank you danielle it says only 30 mg thryoid but alot of liver i v e been taking nutrimeds the dark ones are the only ones that seeem to work but is 65 mg and woudl take a few , before that thyrovanz [ stopped working ] beofre that thyrogold stopped working when capsules filler were white instead of dark ]
        am worreid that any of them could be from GMO fed cows have been too tirred to figure out how to have it tested mayeb i will ask GMO free usa if they know anything glad to knwo you like ancestral it sounds realy great and i have a few bottles.a nd it was only one review that said that so maybe is fine

  29. Denise says:

    Bloodwork on May 6
    Armour 90 mg, Liothyronine 15 mcg

    Reverse T3 18.9 (9.2-24.1)
    Free T3 3.2 (2.0-4.4)
    Free T4 .56 (.79-2.19)

    Bloodwork on June 30
    Armour 120 mg, Liothyronine 20 mcg

    Reverse T3 13.4 (9.2-24.1)
    Free T3 3.7 (2.0-4.4)
    Free T4 .94 (.79-2.19)

    Feb 20, 2020
    Free T3 1.09 (0.79-2.19)
    (Believe I was already taking Armour 90mg, Liothyronine 15 mcg)

    By the way, I’ve never been optimal since being diagnosed.

  30. Sue Prytherch says:

    First of all, I was on NP Thyroid, and got off of it when it started smelling like “cat pee.” I have been happily on Armour for over 2 years now. So, it’s working for me. But, here is what I think. Most of our prescription drugs now come from China. Why? Because China sells the powders cheap and other countries cannot match the cheap prices from China. Let’s say you are a US producer of dessicated thyroid. Your company is perhaps a pork producer, and the dessicated thyroid is a by-product of the pig. Let’s say your company sells “X” amount of porcine powder for $10,000 (to the drug companies). You sell it to the drug companies who are then making Thyroid “pills” and selling it to pharmacies. Well, along comes China. They send out their sales people to the drug companies and they tell the drug companies they will sell them the same “x” amount of porcine powder for $5000. If you are a drug company, needing to supply your manufacturing facility with porcine powder, and you want to be profitable, it is very tempting to start buying your porcine powder from China. So, I think the US porcine company might try to compete with China prices for a while, but I believe that China’s prices are sooo much less, that the US porcine suppliers cannot compete. Perhaps they cannot even make it for the $5000 price. So, why do it, and LOSE money. So, they STOP making porcine powder… and China becomes the only supplier to most, if not all, of the drug companies making dessicated thyroid. I bet this scenario goes on all over the world, until the only dessicated thyroid being supplied is from China. And be aware that this is not only thyroid meds, it is an astounding amount of other drugs, too. And none of the drug companies are going to stop it, because they are all greedy, and they WANT the cheap prices from China to manufacturer their drugs. So……………. why are some Armour pills working and some are not?? Perhaps there is more than one location in China making dessicated thyroid, and all of us in the US go to different pharmacies and those pharmacies have different suppliers. Perhaps Armour gets it’s supply from China City #1 for a while, and then from China City #2 for a while. So, even though we still see “Armour” on the label, it has been changed along the way – coming from different suppliers in China perhaps. So, by now you see my skepticism of China products, especially drugs. But let’s take it one step further….. Let’s say China now has a World monopoly on Porcine powder, and it slowly decreases it’s active porcine ingredient in it’s powder. From 100% porcine to perhaps 80% porcine.. and now the Armour pills that you thought contained “X” amount of dessicated thyroid, now contain LESS. And the thyroid patients, all have worse labs… (stretched out over months or perhaps years) and so their doctor’s all raise their dosage…. and Armour now sells more pills, with a lesser does in each….. Just let me ask you, how long, IF EVER, would it take the American thyroid public to figure that out. Or the FDA…. Or the batch of clueless doctors to put their finger on that. NEVER.

    • Very interesting theory, Sue. I have personally suspected that China had something to do with American Labs in the US ceasing to supply porcine powder. just never could prove it, and still can’t.

      • Sharon Hagen says:

        The only flaw in your speculation is that NDT manufacturers, prior to their demise, said that they were sourcing porcine powder from “Europe.” At the time I thought “Huh. WHERE in Europe ? Bulgaria, where there’s an active world wide drug cartel, with well established smuggling lines perhaps ?” That’s not to diss Bulgaria alone, but with the EU, what does “coming from Europe” mean anymore ? And from where did these “European” sources get their supply ? China maybe ? How would we know ? How would we know what the pigs were fed, what antibiotics or pesticides were in their feed ? Those are rhetorical questions, because the obvious answer is that we patients don’t know doodly about what we’re ingesting in, in this case porcine powder, but also in fillers or in the entire drug itself. I’m not just talking about thyroid medication in that case. I read a horrifying account about the FDA FINALLY inspecting a nominally US pharmaceutical company’s Indian manufacturing facility. Rodent and insect infestation, drug cross contamination in the machines, you name it. The FDA does NOT regularly inspect foreign manufacturers of drug components. I mean, I wonder how long Acella manufactured sub-potent NP before the FDA caught the problem ?

        @ Janie Bowthorpe, are you keeping a log of what strengths people who are not doing well on Armour and are reporting that to you with lab backup are on ? NP bad batches were for specific strengths, both recalls, 90 mg and 120 mg. I wonder if we will track the same with Armour ?

        Thanks so much for the work you do <3

        • I don’t disagree with you about what does “Europe” really mean. It could mean that chinese powder got to somewhere from a European seller, and was soldd. Or anything! We just don’t know. All we know is that the porcine being used suddenly smelled like cat piss…when for decades, it has not…and symptoms were returning. Even if symptoms were not returning, who would want to be ingesting pills over time that smell like that.

          I am not yet keeping a log. It was all I can do in my personal situation with a sick husband to get the blog post up. But either I will eventually have a way for people to log in information, or someone else can….

      • Sue Prytherch says:

        Hi Janie, First of all thank you so much for all the work you do. It is amazing. I think the only way for us thyroid patients to get “good” dessicated thyroid meds, is to buy a pig farm and make our own. Wouldn’t that be something! Anything is possible. I keep hoping that a whistleblower from the US pork industry will tell us all what has been going on, but that’s certainly doubtful. At least it’s good that with YOU, and the internet, many of us can keep informed and communicate with each other on what we are finding. I shudder to think how many of the US prescriptions come from China. Maybe 60 minutes needs to do a story… 🙂

        • Believe it or not, in the near 20 years I’ve been doing this, I’ve talked to a few people who were consuming the thyroid of pigs on their farms. lol.

        • sam says:

          sue and janie [ thank you janie fro all thta you do and hope your husband is ok ,
          i even asked the wonderful organic farmer i buy food from if coudol sell cow or pig thyroid said fda or usda or soemthing woudnt allow it think

          will ask 2 more orgnaic farmers next janie did thye do well the people you tlaked to sounds slike thatsthe way to go !

      • Cathy says:

        We have been reading that the U.S. has been sending massive quantities of pigs to China. This article states that along with beef. I have been wondering about all of this for quite a while and how it is affecting natural dessicated thyroid meds.
        https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/u-s-faces-meat-shortage-while-its-pork-exports-to-china-soar/article_d5cd77e3-2a0d-5392-9233-db3bba8c8b27.html

        • Glad you posted that because I remember a rumor that China in some way had something do with the only American facility that makes porcine powderceasing to do it in 2017.

  31. Russ says:

    I’ve suspected a change in Armour for the last two months.
    Was feeling good for about a year or so.
    Now feeling crappy again, need a nap at 1:30 pm every day and have put on nearly 10 lbs. while on my regular dosage of 2 grains.
    (Not sure if it makes any difference but I’m located in So. California/Orange County area. )

    • That sounds frustrating, Russ! And to make your experience more accurate, you have to see if you were never quite optimal and thus, finally crashed from not being optimal. Some non-optimal people crash fairly soon; others can go a year or more before they crash from not being truly optimal.

    • Edna says:

      I was feeling the same as you. Came to see that now my prescription says Allergen and not Forest lab.
      How about yours?

      • Rae says:

        Mine says Allergen too!!

        Both are 90 day supplies of 90mg from CVS mail order pharmacy delivered to Decatur GA.

    • Rae Sanders says:

      Same, Russ!! This stinks!! I was feeling really well, and now I am painfully tired all the time. Hope things get better for you.

      • Rae, another thing to explore is that hardly anyone is truly optimal on 90 mg or less, as you felt you were. Yes, we can feel good on non-optimal doses, but it ends up all crashing. There’s definitely a possibility that this is what happened to you, not that you had a bad batch of armour. And there’s also potential evidence that you have a cortisol problem now from not truly being optimal. I referenced this in my previous reply to you: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info

        • Rae Sanders says:

          Thanks so much, Janie. I will talk with my Dr. about raising, though she was the one who wanted to lower based on TSH.

          The immediate shift from feeling great to horrible did correspond to the change in batches, so while I may need to raise based on that, it is darn frustrating at having to deal with these variations. (I purchased a cortisol test from the site suggestions, so will do that).

          I’m sure I have high cortisol… I’m a frequent ‘fight or flight’ mode person.

          I also wonder whether there is some new filler that only affects some of us? I am highly sensitive to chemicals and changes of all kinds, lol. Are either of you?

  32. daphne kanas says:

    So odd, my issue is I feel amazing on it one day and then the next I feel like I have a heart attack; I went on tirosint, that seemed to be good, but I still feel tired or sleepy. In the evening, I have more energy, so I guess it comes in waves. I also have half of my thyroid as of 2015. So I haven’t been able to get this whole thing in order, really.

  33. Jennifer says:

    Armour is NOT working for my husband and I. We went back on it after the new Thyroid S was recalled due to subpotency. Been on it for a couple months and steadily losing energy, gaining weight, arthritis worsening, bloating and insomnia have been horrible. We are now looking for another solution. Also tried Tru Thyroid and that was even worse plus half the shipment never arrived and they have refused to refund my money. Armour has been chewed up and swallowed. It’s impossible to do it sublingually because it forms a terrible paste that doesn’t dissolve. Terrible I wish these companies would stop screwing around with our health!

    • Jennifer, before assuming that Armour isn’t working for you, compare you free T4 and free T3 to this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal

      It also sounds like you could have an adrenal problem. This: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info

      • Jen says:

        My adrenals are actually perfect. I had saliva done a month ago and all was right where your site says they should be. We were both perfect on Thyroid S for years until last year. Then NP which failed, now Armour. I honestly don’t care about labs as much as symptoms. I’ve gained over 15 lbs since being on Armour and my skin is severely dry, insomnia is awful, hair is thinning, nails breaking, no libido. I KNOW how I feel when I am hypo and the medication is not working. Armour is not working. My husband has also gained weight and is fired all the time since going to Armour. Now we are wondering what we can try taking NOW???

        • If you are in the camp of people who had perfect cortisol results, perfect iron results, a low RT3 (all are important) and truly optimal frees, yet still went downhill on Armour, then a next good choice is using the equivalent amounts of T4 and T3 as are in NDT.

  34. Jeanne says:

    So sad to read this! I have not run labs in a while as I’ve been stable on 240mg for years. About to call my pharmacy for my 90 day refill…. Makes me wonder if I should get a smaller amount… it’s STUPID expensive! Will follow this conversation closely and consider getting some labs. Thanks for all you do Janie!

  35. Mary Garito says:

    Thank you for your post Janie and for all you do to keep us up to date. I just want to report that my husband and I both take Armour and have not seen any changes. We both still feel good. (Just FYI we both have half a tab of 300mg every morning, and do not chew it, just swallow. I used to multi-dose but found I’m OK with the one dose.) I will report back if we see any change after our next prescription.

  36. Stephanie Gundrum says:

    I was on NP Thyroid for 18 months (after NP and Naturethroid became unavailable) and labs after this time (and plus 25 lbs) basically looked like I was not taking ANY thyroid meds! (moving and Covid created finding new Dr problems) Switched me to Armour, some labs improvement but physically no change, switched back to synthroid in May – waiting on tests. ( also added Contrave for weight loss- hoped the naltrexone would help- minimal weight loss after 8 weeks) I have not been on Synthroid in 15 years- but never found an optimal range with any NDT – but lots of Dr resistance and availability issues.

  37. Steve says:

    Finally got all my labs optimized and soon after developed a serious case of A-Fib.

    Anyone else having this issue with Armour?

  38. Judith Kiplinger says:

    Is there any pattern in states where it is or isn’t working optimally?

    • VERY good question!! It would be a great poll to find out…but you’d also have to weed out those who never got optimal. Never being optimal eventually causes a bad crash. And the latter is not related to Armour having changed/not working.

  39. Karen K says:

    I’ve been optimal on Armour for 9 months. My last refill was 2 months ago. My latest labs were 2 weeks ago and levels are still optimal with all hypothyroid symptoms eliminated. Body temperature is finally back to normal after many years of below 98 degrees while on Synthroid, Naturethroid and then back to Synthroid.

  40. Chris says:

    Thanks for this. I feel like I made an oops on getting off Armour. I was one who was optimal on 2 grains and lost weight. Then it just stunk the last 2 months. I’m calling my doctor to go up a grain tomorrow.

    • Keep us informed. For those who have seen a decline in Armour, it’s very curious if raising it will make it work again.

      It’s kind of like the decline of armour in 2009. Several reported that by chewing it up, they were able to get out of their hypothyroid state again. So the big question is: can it work better by raising??

      • Chris says:

        Yeah I miss it. I asked to go on a synthetic T4/t3 and regret it and it’s only been a week and change. I’m afraid to go gravel back but I will.

        I know they wanted to put me on 25 mcg of t3 when I was on 120 mg to pump up the t3 bc they focus on t3.

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