Four days ago, I was finally able to compose a blog post about two issues: that something fishy/suspicious seemed to be going on with Armour desiccated thyroid for a certain body of hypothyroid or Hashimoto’s patients. Plus some comments were also going around that needed better balance.
For anyone new to this topic and scratching your head about any part above:
1) Armour is a brand prescription of porcine desiccated thyroid that has been around for many, many decades. It was, in fact, the only most successful hypothyroid treatment.
2) Desiccated Thyroid has all five hormones (T4, T3, T2, T1 and calcitonin) and has been changing lives all over again since the turn of this century, unlike T4-only which appeared to be a poor treatment for too many patients since 1960.
3) Over the past few years, Armour was the only desiccated thyroid that patients reported was still working, unlike what patients were reporting about Naturethroid, WP Thyroid, and NP Thyroid. And all three of the latter were recalled with most strengths after numerous patient complaints!
What has been brewing about Armour desiccated thyroid?
Turns out that some patients, in different locations, have been noticing and reporting a downhill slide with Armour, whereas before, they didn’t have those problems. For some on the same dose, their labs plummeted, and in this group, there were occasional posted labs to prove it. Other patients in this group simply noticed a strange return of symptoms after doing well for quite awhile.
The other problem
Unfortunately, a strong statement was also going around that Armour was working for “NO ONE”!! But that was unbalanced and false. For those who were paying attention, there have been another body of patients who are still reporting and experiencing Armour as working, and found the latter statement of “NO ONE” insulting to their own experience. And some of these patients have labs to prove it is still working, too.
Is there a possibility that a large body of us will find Armour not working like it used to? Yes. It happened before in 2009. Yet, even with the latter, and even though it appeared to be a huge percentage who had problems in 2009, there were STILL a minority who claimed they were still fine. Patient experiences DO HAVE gray areas.
Today, no one is a magical soothsayer. And with a variety of opposite patient experiences going on, we are nowhere near being able to claim that Armour is currently working for NO ONE. We need time and more experiences to truly figure out what is going on.
Four Armour Exploration posts were created on the Stop the Thyroid Madness (STTM) facebook page
Below are mention of the four graphic questions. Keep in mind that STTM is not, nor am I, a polling business. This is informal. But it doesn’t take away what we are getting from the comments to each question.
For each question below that was posted on the STTM Facebook page, I also refer here and there to the two camps: those who experienced clear changes vs those who experience still doing well. When you see reference to “optimal“, this refers to having a free T3 in the upper part of the range, and the free T4 around midrange–an important goal we learned about years ago. If we don’t get optimal, our good results eventually backfire. We wanted to differentiate backfiring from not being optimal, to backfiring due to Armour having changed for the negative.
QUESTION #1: Asking where people live who had optimal frees, then redid labs on the same amount of Armour, and now saw their labs were messed up.
This was an attempt to see if locations are common for those who once had optimal labs, then on the same amount and new labs, saw negative changes in their lab results. Before each below will be either GREEN square (representing those experiencing Armour still working), a RED square (representing those whose labs shows a solid experience of a changed Armour) or a BLUE square (representing either a neutral statement, a statement without enough proof, a statement that didn’t fit what the graphic was asking for, or other.)
Had a few state a negative change to labs, but there were problems identifying this as Armour being bad. For example, one possibly had high RT3 (didn’t test it) and another suspected a nodule changing her labs.
One stated she felt she was good, then moved to T4/T3, but we don’t have enough information as she didn’t post labs or go into more detail.
One guy did mention that all labs are showing optimal and have for four years. (Wish we could have seen the labs, but four years is strong). Another gal said basically the same, but no labs. More positive comments like this under the “other” below.
A gal mentioned feeling achy, but no thyroid labs to help explain why and could be about low iron. So better info is needed.
Two gals mentioned previous optimal labs, then they went off. One of the two mentioned she’s getting adrenals checked before saying what caused it.
A gal found herself with “crazy high T3”. Another was over range. But more needs to be explored, as a cortisol problem can do that, too.
One gal had symptoms and raising did nothing, so she stopped the Armour. (What we can’t discern with this is were her raises still too low, which would do nothing for her. Need better info to have a strong lean.)
Another gal says she was stable for years on Armour, then her labs were abnormally low in May and June.
A gal in Ireland experiences all is fine, but no labs for more solid proof.
One gal states optimal on 4 grains plus 25mcg T3. This has been mentioned a few times before and makes you wonder if adding T3 to Armour is a good idea right now. Thus the green.
QUESTION #2: If you are in the camp still experiencing good results with Armour, where do you live?
This is an attempt to discern if locations (i.e. where certain lots of Armour were sent) would explain why some experience still doing well on Armour.
Answers all over the map, though in the US, there were more in the east than the west, and only some in the middle area of the US. Other countries were represented, too, as STTM is for worldwide experiences. This did not give us any definitive answer.
QUESTION #3: This was to see if those who experienced a change in Armour had noticed a change in the tablets.
Then the following comments:
- No changes from Texas.
- No changes in any way for over a year.
- Tastes the same, same shape, same size (and seems to be working)
- Same size; same smell.
- Same smell, but looked and tasted different.
- Felt better on a different script of Armour, but all were the same with the tabs size, smell, etc.
- Pills from Dec. 2020 and May 2021 are different (now darker in color and less depth). This fits the photo above.
- Gal said the new ones are smaller, but no photo produced to give confirmation. You could say the photo with the newer bottle pill on the left is “smaller” in depth.
- A gal states the working tablets smelled like roasted meat; new ones are medicinal/chemical. But she can’t verify it was Armour. (Would like to hear more feedback from others.)
- Last month’s tablets dissolve quickly. This month have to bite in to dissolve. This could also fit what we’re seeing in the photo, as right one (older one) looks chalkier, and new one looks firmer.
QUESTION #4: This question asked how much Armour you have been/are on, and to see labs (free T4, free T3 and RT3) from both camps: those who experienced a negative change in their symptoms with labs to prove it, and those who still experienced doing quite well, and with labs.
Unfortunately and as seen often in groups, getting labs posted can be like trying to suck a thick malted ice cream through a skinny straw. It’s challenging. But below is what we got….
Lots of comments that had nothing to do with labs. But the labs posted showed either potential pooling, or not optimal, or lowered T4 due to rising RT3, or simply a too high RT3. Hard to come to conclusions.
MISCELLANEOUS REPLIES THAT DIDN’ T ALWAYS FIT THE QUESTION, but still interesting…
- On 240 mg Armour for years and no problems. No labs.
- Doing well on Armour.
- From Sweden: Doing good on 240 mg Armour plus 20 mg T3. Another positive response when using both. Hmmmmm
- Some negative replies about Armour that may be more about underdosing. All were pretty low. So not strong enough information.
- At least FOUR different people commenting that ARMOUR IS WORKING WITH SOME T3.
- One interesting comment wondering if COVID did this to a lot of people who have had sudden negative problems.
- One gal feels like a mess with 180mg five days a week, 360mg two days a week. Odd dosing for sure!
- Doing great on 360 mg twice a day and 25 T3 twice a day. (She may have Thyroid Hormone resistance, thus the high amounts. 8 years of of doing great, which is strong for Armour working for her)
- At least three comments for “No issues”. Another comment for “No difference”
Summary
The four Armour Exploratory graphic questions underscored the same situation going on for awhile: differences in experiences, meaning one camp experiencing Armour has changed for the negative, and another camp experiencing still doing quite fine on Armour. So looks like we need more time, more reports.
In the meantime, those who went downhill can definitely consider switching to using synthetic T4 with synthetic T3. And do know that people are using different brands of each successfully. And it continues to be important to learn this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Others may end up adding T3 to that Armour, but it will be important to have the right amount of cortisol, we as informed patients know first hand. Raising T3 in the presence of a cortisol problem all too frequently results in hyper-like symptoms as T3 climbs high in the blood without the right amount of cortisol. The right amount of cortisol helps that T3 attach to cell receptors. Here’s a saliva cortisol test you can order: https://saliva-cortisol.squarespace.com/
So we’ll all keep an eye out over time.
Important notes: All the information on this website is copyrighted. STTM is an information-only site based on what many patients worldwide have reported in their treatment and wisdom over the years. This is not to be taken as personal medical advice, nor to replace a relationship with your doctor. By reading this information-only website, you take full responsibility for what you choose to do with this website's information or outcomes. See the Disclaimer and Terms of Use.
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248 Responses to “A Followup to the previous post titled “Is Armour Working…or Not?””
G
HI Janie
I have a bottle of Armour that was filled on 04/2023, do you think I should toss it and get a fresh one? I’m afraid it may have lost some potency?
thanks
Janie Bowthorpe
Only if you’ve had it in the oven or outside in the heat for days on end….lol
G
Lol!
how long do you think the Armour actually last before loosing potency?
Janie Bowthorpe
They say years if it’s kept in a good climate and a very closed bottle.
Betty
Has anyone tried the new nt drug
Janie Bowthorpe
Some have and are saying they like it. Others who are sensitive to sugar alcohol are concerned about that being one of the ingredients–that if they keep quiet about it, what will stop manufacturers from putting it in larger amounts in more and more products? It’s already widespread.
Often you will read that only “large amounts” cause bad gastrointestinal issues. I’d love to hear the reaction of those who have terrible reactions in “small” amounts.
https://www.ynhh.org/services/nutrition/sugar-alcohol
EJ Wilhelm
It took a long time for me to figure out why I suddenly had debilitating diarrhea when I caught a cold and would use 1 cough drop. I discovered that the store I “always” bought my cough drops from switched to sugar-free cough drops. Several years later, I bought a bag of individually wrapped candies with the same debilitating diarrhea after just 1-2 candies in a day. Again, I found the sugar-free label. I avoid all sugar-free items now.
Janie Bowthorpe
That may not be about “sugar free” as much as it may be about any form of “sugar alcohol”. Look up all the different names for sugar alcohol. I get bad gastrointestinal symptoms for sugar alcohol, too. And you know why they put that crap in some candies or foods that are to be sweet? Because it’s cheap.
Sarah
Getting bad gastrointestinal symptoms like bloating, gas and cramping pain from sugar alcohol can be a sign of SIBO / Small intestinal bowl overgrowth. I would get excruciating stomach pain from dry mouth lozenges with xylitol and in response my Gastroenterologist gave me Bentyl which caused constipation and more dry mouth. Vicious cycle. Low thyroid can also cause constipation.
Janie Bowthorpe
Sarah, to connect bad gastrointestinal symptoms with sugar alcohol sounds interesting, but is coming across as just “opinion”. Provide proof of this connection, please.
Mary Ann
I’m not getting good results with Armour. When I took naturethroid some batches were great and some not so great. The batches that worked had a strong porcine smell. I was able to get results from the naturethroid though. Now on Armour I’ve gained 10 lbs and can barely function. Armour has no porcine odor. Legs feel like lead when I try to bike ride. FYI, I have no thyroid gland, my body destroyed it. Need a good natural dessicated thyroid like naturethroid used to be before 2018
Janie Bowthorpe
Mary Ann, what I have always done for 21 years now is pay attention to whether people are doing good or not on an NDT. And right now, the vast, vast majority are doing great…AS LONG AS they get optimal frees https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal, don’t have rising RT3 https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3, don’t have low iron which pushes up RT3 https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/iron, don’t have a cortisol problem https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info. So you have homework to do. Armour is working.
Gianluca
I just wanted to check how is everyone doing now days on Armour.
I recently switched from NP to it, as I was believing it is the most reliable and consistent of the NDT, and for what it cost it should be! but I still see many negative comments on other groups about it. I hear people doing better on t4/t3 combo instead.
I’m thinking, is Armour price really justified compared to NP for example?
Janie Bowthorpe
Gianluca, we see common reasons for complaints which aren’t directed related to NDT. And since people don’t understand the below, they had over there and blame Armour wrongly.
For one, you have to achieve optimal frees. That’s referring to free T3 and free T4 and in the right areas of the range. For example, having a midrange free T3 is NOT optimal. When you don’t achieve optimal levels, especially the free T3, everything backfires. But that’s not the fault of Armour. It’s because the user hasn’t read the book, which has numerous references to what optimal means, or the website page on optimal, and achieved it. So they wrongly blame Armour. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Second, some people feel their free T3 result is optimal, yet they still have symptoms. That can point to what we call pooling, which is due to a cortisol problem: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/pooling Yet they blame Armour, yet it’s not the fault of Armour.
Others have rising RT3 causing problems. That’s not the fault of Armour. It’s the fault of three issues causing the problems: low iron, inflammation, or high cortisol.
Could some have issues with the fillers? Yes, but it’s a very small percentage. Could there occasionally be a bad batch? claim they are optimal, and when their frees are seen, they aren’t.
Others can have issues raising Armour due to it revealing they have a cortisol problem. i.e. when you try to raise it with that cortisol issue, what is noticed are hyper-like symptoms such as higher heartrate, palps, and less common having anxiety or shakiness. So that’s not about Armour; it’s about what it reveals: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info
Third, some people don’t understand the RT3 issue. RT3, the inactive hormone, can go up due to having either low iron, inflammation, or high cortisol. Since RT3 is an inactive hormone, and since it should be falling in the bottom of its range or below range, having it climb makes one feel more hypo. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3
Could some react to fillers? Yes, but it’s a very small percentage.
And then we had geniune complaints between 2018 and 2020 about Naturethroid, WP and NP. They were all recalled by the FDA. NP came back and so far, people seem to be okay with it.
Gianluca
Thank you Janie. Happy Holidays!
Waveines
Hi Janey. Just want to let you know I’m doing great on Armour. I moved across to it from NP Thyroid when they hit a rough patch. I’m very stable on it… No more swings.
When Armour reformulated it years ago it didn’t work for me. I though it was the fillers. My cortisol levels were fine. Now I wonder if it was because since then I have gone gluten free and have regular b12 jabs and take a basic B complex. Vit D optimal. Going GF made a massive difference, my tummy has settled, I feel better, large tummy gone.
I agree with you – people may underestimate the importance of other Co factors. If these are not addressed no thyroid replacement will work well.
NDT I much prefer. It’s slower uptake and slower drop than the synthetics suits me much better. It therefore feels smooth to me no spikes or drops. That’s my experience…. We are all different.
These pills are useless and have no potency
Went from feeling good then getting my second refill my tsh went up to 30 and yes I do blame armour thyroid
Janie Bowthorpe
That can happen from RT3 going up (All NDT’s are 80% T4, which can convert to RT3 due to three main reasons: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3/) or from being underdosed. Yes, one can feel good while underdosed (i.e. not optimal https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal/), but it eventually backfires badly.
So far, we haven’t gotten any strong reports of a new bottle being useless.
Tammis Kennedy
The new bottle of armor thyroid says :levothyroxine (t4) 38 mcg and liothyronime (t3) 9mcg. There is a definite change to Armour; it was bought out by allergan labs. There is a world wide porcine shortage. It used to be all porcine, and I never had a problem in 12 years on it. The FDA seems to want to get rid of natural thyroid meds in general. There was a sudden and drastic change when I went on this stuff, it also makes me itchy!!!!
Janie Bowthorpe
Tammis, for years and years, the manufacturers of Armour has always used those two terms. They have nothing to do with something negative. Second, many, many, many, many people have been reporting doing quite well on Armour for awhile now. If something was wrong, we wouldn’t be consistently hearing those reports from the majority. When something goes wrong, some start reporting what’s wrong, they that some increases and the dominos start to fall across the majority. The latter is not happening. Third, there is no solid proof that the FDA is trying to get rid of natural thyroid meds, even though some in leadership love the attention they get from saying so. Sure the FDA does very stupid things. But that doesn’t equal that they are trying to get rid of it…yet. And last, being itchy can point to something in a filler. It can also point to not understand what it means to be optimal, and thus not being optimal.
Angie F.
Janie, I’ll reply to both your comments in one.
Glad you’re with me on pharmaceutical products or ingredients made in China. Both are, by and large, crap. There may be exceptions, but given the lack of governmental oversight AND given the blatant disregard Sichuan Friendly has shown toward FDA requirements, we can’t afford not to be discerning. Here is an excerpt from a Wiki article on the quality of same. Note the number of FDA violations incurred. And also just let me state again that coupled with the fact that Abbvie/Allergan refuses to give the source of their current API AND the Medisca announcement that they were in partnership with Abbott, I strongly suspect that Medisca/Sichuan Deebio (or Friendly) are supplying Armour with their API since mid last year.
“Quality
The Quality of drugs and Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients (API) made by Chinese pharmaceutical companies is often poor.
In the past three years 2015–2017, there were 35 FDA warning letters to Chinese pharmaceutical companies citing serious Data Integrity issues, including data deletion or manipulation or fabrication of test results, see “An Analysis of 2017 FDA Warning Letters on Data Integrity” By Barbara Unger, Unger Consulting Inc. An Analysis Of 2017 FDA Warning Letters On Data Integrity
See the long list of Chinese pharmaceutical companies which have been placed on Import Alert by the FDA due to serious noncompliance with Good Manufacturing Procedures Import Alert 66-40
See the European Medicines Agency EudaGMDP Noncompliance Reports based on Inspections of companies that revealed serious noncompliance with Good Manufacturing Procedures: Eudra GMP – Public Layout
See FDA Warning Letters detailing serious noncompliance with Good Manufacturing Procedures: Warning Letters”
Yes, you and I have had the iron/cortisol discussion a number of times. We had it when I, due to PACs and an ER visit, suspected NP/Acella of problems (note: that many NP lots issued during this period were recalled due to superpotency of T3). We had it when I suspected RLC/Naturethroid of subpotency issues (note that there were RLC lots recalled and they have ceased ALL manufacturing due to FDA violations). Maybe you remember those discussions, maybe you’ll also remember that I was the originator of the MoveOn.org petitions to both Acella and NP AND that I filled out an adverse event report after my ER trip, which cost me, out of pocket, around $1,000.
I’ve asked this question numerous times of you and it’s yet to be answered. If iron/cortisol are potential problems, then why do my issues resolve with either new batches or brand changes?
One of the primary violations cited by the FDA on ALL of these companies (and anybody interested in the specifics can read the FDA warning letters or articles up at Fiercepharma on Sichuan, Acella, and RLC) was inconsistent level of BOTH T4 and T3 in the raw material. This was especially so for Sichuan. In addition, solvent contamination,, improper or no equipment decontamination, running evaluations again and again until the result they needed to sell the product was obtained. There is no “optimal” anything with inconsistent levels of hormone; moving target..not happening. And I submit for consideration that inconsistent hormone levels may be the cause of adrenal hypo or hyperfunction, not necessarily the result.
All that notwithstanding, I am evaluating a number of factors, as well as a potential reaction to my 2nd booster which may have complicated things even further. Since I’ve seen no announcements or postings from STTM, other than a brief mention on the STTM Facebook page, you may not be aware that there have been, most definitely, thyroid related complications from the SARsCo-V2 vaccines; subacute thyroiditis being the most common, but also elevations in a number of thyroid antibodies.
The rash I’m experiencing, unless there are NEW excipients which Allergan hasn’t owned up to, is not from “fillers”. I have had the same on a compounded fill using Chinese API (Medisca supplier) and cessation on an older compounded fill using PCCA as the supplier (PCCA does NOT source from China at last check).
I didn’t ask why some folks were doing fine and some not. I hypothesized why that might be the case. And let me also just point out that Armour, due to Abbvie price gouging, is INORDINATELY expensive. It needs to work…consistently. It is not acceptable to me to pay $100-150 for a month’s supply and have meds of, quite frankly, shitty quality. To say that there aren’t enough problems to say that there is a problem is medical gaslighting; particularly to those of us that have suffered or incurred significant additional expense due to the inconsistencies.
I have submitted an a/e report to the FDA as of a couple of days ago on products containing, or potentially containing API from Sichuan. I cautioned them again about Sichuan Friendly recalled supply still in the U.S. pipelines labeled as something else. Included in that complaint were batches of Armour that I found problematic (one of which DID have me hypo).
As a consumer, specifically a pharmaceutical consumer, I am tired of effing around. Either we start confronting and holding to account companies with sub-par quality for no other reason than cost-cutting measures for exorbitant profits, or we continue to suffer. I’m doing my part. I’d like to see the so-called patient advocates doing the same.
I’ll close with a link to one of the FiercePharma articles for those interested in reading; https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/thyroid-meds-ingredient-from-banned-chinese-plant-recalled-nationally
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Angie. I was surprised to read the implication that I hadn’t answered something. I always reply to comments. But my comments were about the recent Armour and what I and others have observed. Not about Naturethroid or NP. The latter were, in fact, causing a large body of people to have problems. Armour, on the other hand, hasn’t yet fit the “large body of people”, nor have symptoms of a rash. I’ve also mentioned the possibility that Armour can have had some bad batches here or there. But overall, this hasn’t been like Naturethroid or NP was…yet.
My comment about a rash was based on years of what patients have noticed if they are allergic to something, which had usually been fillers. But I’m not at all against the idea about the possibility of Armour being from Chinese sources of porcine powder. Also, I don’t see many people report rashes on Armour as of recently…yet. But I continue do what I’ve done for 20 years….look for consistency of reports and report them.
I’m not your enemy, Angie. Just not yet seeing anything consistent yet. But I will repeat—it’s definitely a concern if there is anything porcine in Armour from China. We just need more proof. So on that, I can support your work.
Ann
Hello,
I have not been reading all the recent comments for months now as I have been dealing with my own health issues other than thyroid for a few months. I would like to say that I switched from NP to Amour just before they discovered something was amiss and didn’t have any problems until the last 4-5 months. I started having redness around my mouth just about an hour after taking my medication. I have never had this problem before when taking Amour. It seems to lessen late afternoon. I am too afraid to go back to NP (I have never felt well when I was on it and have tried synthetics but didn’t feel well on those either). I currently just cover the redness around my lips. Don’t know if this is something like Angie but I thought I would post. This is a journey for sure!
Rachelle
I switched to Armour in January after previously being on NT until late summer 2021. After that I tried NP and also the compounded recommended on the Nature-Throid website.
With all the switches my body got confused, so I started over with one grain Armour and slowly raised over several months trying to optimize. Initially I felt good as I started to raise. My last lab was close to the optimal values so I did one more slight raise. Then around the July/Aug 2022 time frame I started having problems with burning lips and redness around the outside of my lips. I am not certain at this point if it’s seasonal allergy related or Armour related. At that time I felt slightly overdosed and so I lowered to see if that was the issue. It seems better when lowered but at that point it is no longer in the optimal range.
Like you, Ann, I also seem to have the worst symptoms in the morning and feel much better by evening. That seems more unusual for a seasonal allergy but it’s certainly possible. Other symptoms I have had are headache, slight nausea, swollen tonsils and mild stool issues. I called in a refill today for NP to see if there is a difference. Certainly frustrating for sure! I still have hopes for NT as it always seemed to do best for me even when there were issues with the weak batches. Since they have hired new people in the last year it gives me hope that they will work through the issues!
Rachelle
After posting this yesterday, I went back over all the wide range of possible causes for poor results and decided to run the 4 iron labs. I am near the bottom of the range on all 4 with a low Iron Binding Capacity of 245 (250-450). With the brand switch I am now going to add an additional Iron supplement. I really appreciate all the information you have on the site Janie to help us work through the process!
Janie Bowthorpe
A low TIBC seems to be a genetic problem. I have the same thing. It means you don’t make enough of the protein called transferrin. Transferrin carries iron around. So we do take a capsule of lactoferrin with our iron to make up for low transferrin. Read what patients have learned: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/iron And you can share this with your doc.
Ann
Rachelle,
I too went down a 1/4 dose for two weeks and saw improvement with my lip redness and burning. I have since gone back up and the same redness and burning is coming back. I do think it is the Amour. I have a prescription for NP and am going to take the plunge and try it for a couple of weeks at my original dose of Amour and see what happens. My doctor ran my iron labs a few weeks back as well as vitamin d and all look good! (And yes I refer to the page on STTM). Please let us know how you do on the NP.
Janie Bowthorpe
That sounds like an allergy to something, possibly a filler.
Ann
Yes it could be an allergic reaction but when I called the company they said the formulation has not changed in years. Since I have been on it for well over a year and a half with no problems and this has just started in the past 4 or so months I do wonder if something really has been changed as Angie has stated. Worth at least noting at this point and as you say continue to monitor. If we say nothing it never gets a hard look! Thanks to all of you!
Janie Bowthorpe
What can be changed is where they get a supply of something, and what might be in the different supply.
Janie Bowthorpe
Also, for twenty years, even when Naturethroid, WP or NP was working great, there was always, always some who didn’t do great while the VAST majority were. That is normal. And that is true today. There have always been individual variables here or there. And that doesn’t mean that globally, something is wrong with this product or that today. Promise.
It seems to be human nature for anyone as an individual to think their individual issue must be true for many or most. Not so.
Angie F
I think it may be time to resurrect the Armour/NDT discussion. Please allow me to elaborate.
I have posted here several times that I had seen inconsistencies in Armour starting, for myself, in late fall of 2021. Others have reported similar. A review of the webmd and drug.com sites on Armour specifically show a whole host of problems. Hypo symptoms, labs with crazy high T3, a/o burgeoning TSH, and increased antibody numbers, etc. Also reported are new onsets or worsening of anxiety and panic, which has been my recent personal hell. Yes, I know that this can be a result of adrenals, iron, etc., and I am exploring those avenues, but this, for me at least was an entirely new experience.
In early July of this year, consistent with Armour lot #’s in late 5’s or early 6’s (example W05441, W06139, W06092), I began to have panic attacks, which I don’t suffer from. The only time I have ever experienced anything remotely resembling same was during the menopause transition when I also was positive for both Lyme, had extraordinarily high TSI and TPO antibody counts, was diagnosed with Graves and all resolved. I have tried recent compounded med with API from Medisca (more on that in a moment), and had the same response. I could go back to an older compounded med that I had with API from PCCA and the panic problem would taper off and then seem to disappear entirely. This wasn’t a case of lower potency, despite the med being technically beyond its “use by” date, temps/pulse/ all were HIGHER than on the Armour and newer compounded.
So, I did what I do in these circumstances, and dug into the matter. Here is what I discovered. We are all aware of the apparent shortage of thyroid raw material. A company by the name of Medisca has proclaimed to have an answer to the problem, sourcing API from a Chinese manufacturing company, Sichuan Deebio Pharmaceuticals. One of the non-compounding partnerships that Medisca has announced is with Abbott, which of course is the Abbvie/Allergan parent company. Both Medisca and Sichuan claim a new extraction process and other innovations that are supposed to yield a better, more consistent product. However, and here is my concern, raw material from Sichuan Friendly (and I haven’t verified if the company is the same, but newer facility), which some of y’all will remember had GROSS FDA violations, was recalled, warnings were issued, and at least one pharmaceutical company (Westminster) using their API had to shut down manufacturing of NDT altogether.
I’m renewing this thread for a couple of reasons. I’d like to know if more STTM folks have had the anxiety/panic issue. (I also had a horrible itchy rash all over my back and upper back legs and lower front torso, as well as frequent headaches, and I would often note a very slow pulse as well.) I suspect that the reason we’re seeing problems is the Sichuan Deebio/Medisca connection. They made their big announcements to the market in Aug of last year which would be about the time, reports of problems increased. Those still doing okay on Armour may have had or have lots not yet supplied by the new manufacturer and process. Even if Sichuan Friendly and Sichuan Deebio are not the same company (and the FDA warning informs that they may have product in the supply chain labeled inconspicuously), reports on Chinese pharma manufacturing state that quality is poor and government oversight is ‘nil. I’ve read the FDA warning letters to Sichuan Deebio, as well as articles from FiercePharma on the situation, and the citations range from wildly inconsistent potencies, to solvent contamination, to improper cleaning/decontamination/removal of other drugs from equipment and more. Some pretty alarming stuff.
If I’ve connected the potential dots correctly, this would explain a lot. Why some folks are doing fine, why some are having problems, why some are reporting new side effects.
Anxious to hear what y’all think. I will add that I had a 2nd COVID booster mid-June. That may have had an impact as we now know that the vax can worsen Graves (I’ve checked both Graves and Hashi’s abs, completely negative on all but Hashi’s which are worse).
I can supply links to articles if anybody’s interested.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Angie. I’m with you with concerns about any pharmaceutical product made in China.
But updates to your knowledge about other issues you’ve mention are badly needed. First, a large percent of bad reviews on Armour (outside of when there were real problems) are from people who were never optimal, and/or had a cortisol problem as a result. One thing we’ve learned strongly over the 20 years that STTM has existed is that not getting truly optimal with the frees, and especially the free T3, will result in a return of hypothyroid symptoms…and thus bad reviews blaming Armour…when it wasn’t the fault of Armour. It’s been obvious for years now. And a LOT of people say they have been optimal, yet when we see their labs, they clearly haven’t fully understood or even fully read the optimal page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Second, as a result of people who don’t read, nor have a truly optimal free T3 especially, and the backfire it causes sooner or later, it results in a cortisol problem from stressed adrenals. A LOT of reviews are actually about symptoms caused from their cortisol problem, not because Armour wasn’t working. ”
Third, we see a lot of people whose free T3 does “look” truly optimal as explained on the optimal page https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal, but it actually represents pooling. One can be pooling without it being over range. And again, we as informed patients know that pooling is the result of any kind of cortisol problem.
Fourth, a percentage of bad reviews are due to lack of testing, or lack of knowledge, about rising RT3 cause those issues, not because Armour wasn’t workin.
So no, we can’t go by all those bad reviews to prove that “Armour doesn’t work”.
Yes, there have been clear times that Armour did go south. But too many times it wasn’t south, and their symptoms were from what I’ve already explained, not due to Armour not working.
I’ll add another reply.
Janie Bowthorpe
Part TWO of my reply here:
Always, always, when there is anxiety, look at your adrenals and cortisol levels first! Anxiety is usually due to the release of excess adrenaline, and the latter goes with a cortisol issue, whether too high or two low cortisol. Always go here first before assuming that anxiety points directly to Armour not working: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info
Yes, there could be an issue with Armour not working. But we have to explore other issues, too! For twenty years, I see SO MANY people claim this or that without seeing even attempting to look at other explanations.
And always, always compare any lab results related to your thyroid or adrenals to this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/lab-values
Excess release of adrenaline causing the anxiety can also be due to still being hypothyroid. So before assuming that means Armour doesn’t work, you still need to check your frees to see if they are truly optimal. You still need to check your cortisol levels to see if that’s the reason for the excess anxiety, not that Armour doesn’t work.
There was a time that Armour DID seem to go south. And that became obvious when sooooo many people saw a return of hypo. But since then, we have not seen the abundance of people seeing a return of hypo to say that “something is wrong with Armour”. And there is always the possibility that a particular batch went south. But that still doesn’t mean we have returned to what happened before with Armour for a clear large amount of people.
And I hope people reread what I just said so it will sink in.
And Angie, the rash you describe is more often related to an ingredient you are allergic to or reacting to, not to something “being wrong with Armour overall.” Not everyone has an allergy or bad reaction to fillers. You may. So IF that is going on, we again can’t say “Something is wrong with Armour” as if everyone will be affected, as did, in fact, happen a few years ago.
And your panic attacks can also be related to your adrenals and cortisol levels, not “necessarily” due to “Armour not working anymore”. And if people read this and post that yes, they are experiencing anxiety, that again does NOT mean that “Armour isn’t working!” It can mean they have never gotten optimal; it can mean they have a cortisol problem; it can mean their Free T3 is pooling, it can mean they have rising RT3.
I myself have wondered if a batch of Armour I was on this year was problematic. But that didn’t necessarily mean that “Armour is not working anymore” overall.
You asked “Why some folks are doing fine, why some are having problems, why some are reporting new side effects.” The answers are not ONE answer.
1) Some may be doing fine because they have truly gotten their free T3 optimal, and without having a cortisol problem or rising RT3.
2) Some may be doing fine because most of us DO feel better when our free T3 is midrange. But for most, it will backfire, as we’ve noticed that a midrange Free T3 isn’t often enough.
3) Some may be having problems because they have never read about and understood what optimal means, thus their hypo returns, or they have rising RT3, or they now have a cortisol problem….
4) Some may not be reporting “new” side effects. They just haven’t been around for 20 years seeing all that I see. They aren’t new. And again, those side effects may be due to what I’m repeatedly mentioning here.
5) And yes, there “may” be problems with some of the porcine that NDT is coming from. BUT we have to be more careful blaming Armour in case it’s actually what I’ve mentioned. We have before figured out that something was wrong with Armour. But right now, it’s not consistent enough to say something is wrong with Armour. We’re still watching.
sam
i was told to take st johns wort[ havent been able to s leep at all for weeks occaisonly 1 hour wiht bendryl stopped working ] now i read dont tkae wiht thyoroid medicen am taing very little thryovnaz 65 mg . beucse high pusles rate high cortisol blood test only cant find salaiva test dr.was in hopital wiht low sodium thye said kidneyes fine but have foam in pee thye said doesn t mean kindey disease
they said is jsut anxiety i dont know ,thank you am desperate
JustMe
I had a TT over 12 years ago. Been on the NDT merry-go-round (all of them). I take 3 grains Armour plus 15 mcg Cytomel/day divided into 3 doses. Adrenals are tx’d. I am not getting large refills of Armour in case of off-batches, but something I would like to say is as we get older, other hormones do come into play especially when peri/menopausal. If you’re having palps, sweats etc, get your cortisol tested. Iron panel too. Also, get estrogen/progesterone/testosterone levels checked. I’m doing fine. So far, Armour with added T3 has been working. Going on 3 years with it. So, my report at this time is: Armour is still working for many of us. (I chew my Armour).
JustMe
Well, I spoke too soon. A month later, I have noticed with new refills of Armour I was having hypo syx (on 3 grains of Armour, +15 mcg Cytomel divided 3x’s/day). I have a small cache of older Armour. I started taking the older meds and noticed a huge difference for the better. So, I’m sorry to say, I do believe there’s something going on with NDT. I search online & med libraries but now all I see are recent articles about how “bad old thyroid treatments are.” I am no conspiracy theorist, but I’m beginning to think there really is a push to end NDT. Maybe it’s just supply issues right now, but I’m going to have to switch to Tirosint/Cytomel combo.
Janie, I thank you so much for this website, your book and finding a doctor who works with me. BTW: My doctor just told me all of their thyroid pts are reporting problems with NDT now. NDT has always been my doctor’s preferred thyroid medication. I’m severely allergic to filler ingredients in most synthetic t4 meds except the expensive Tirosint. Cytomel has been fine, but it’s the name brand and expensive too. I can’t take the generics and no insurance. Lovely. It’s definitely not all in our heads. Hang in there, Everyone!
Janie Bowthorpe
Yes, there do seem to be occasional batches which could be odd. And this is actually more about US Pharms losing the only US source of porcine powder a good three years ago. So pharms have had to find new sources of porcine. But glad you will switch to Tirosint and Cytomel. They work just as well as long as we achieve this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Amy
Just wanted to share that I’ve noticed the same thing as JustMe. Some off batches to the point where I never know how I’m going to feel or if I’m registering as optimal month to month. Had a few old Armour pills from early summer 2021 and compared to what I just picked up in July 2022, totally different. Felt much better on the old batch, and they tasted better. Just my observation, these new ones now taste so vile/nasty compared to before that it’s hard to swallow them (I chew my 3 1/2 grains daily.) Going in for labs again soon, as I just got new health insurance. Hoping it’s temporary like you said Janie, and not a more permanent sign of things to come with NDT. Fingers crossed.
Janie Bowthorpe
I’m hoping with you. It’s so back and forth lately.
MissBB
Not just Armour. Been on same dose of NPthyroid but my eyebrows have started to fall out!
Janie Bowthorpe
And have you been optimal? Have you fully read this? https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Elaine
Hello – what is everyone seeing with NP Thyroid these days? I switched back to synthetic T4/T3 a couple years ago after the recalls in 2019. Supply okay? What about strange smell – has that changed any? I used NDT (WP Thyroid then NP) with good results until all the issues. Not feeling well now (lots of hair loss and tendon issues), and considering switching back to NDT if the problems have resolved. Thanks!
Janie Bowthorpe
Sounds like you may not be optimal on your T4 and T3. Read this carefully: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Meredith Barber
Hello. I’ve found myself here after switching medication 5 times over the past year and a half. I have Hashimotos and have done well on Naturethroid from 2014 – 2018. When NatureThroid returned from Hiatus, I gained about 10 lbs despite no changes to diet and exercise (I am active) and I found myself not being able to stay awake past 7pm and overall tiredness and foggy. This went on until Sept. 2020 when I decided I had enough of the supply issues and symptoms and I had my doctor switch me to Synthroid / Cytomel. All seemed well for a few months but I started noticing serious thinning and texture changes with my hair and complete exhaustion by 1pm. I switched back to NatureThroid in January 2021 and by April 2021 I had lost a significant amount of hair that alarmed me so badly (I thought it was NDT causing it) that I switched BACK to synthroid/cytomel and stayed on it for 3 months until July 2021 but the hair loss was so bad at that point that I asked to be put on compounded. My Doctor put me on 2.25 grains of compounded porcine, which was the dosage that I had previously been on when I was on Nature Throid. I started the compounded in August 2021 and tried to stick it out. My hair was slowly growing back and and thickening back up but it was very, very slow. My labs were not even in range for FT3 or FT4 but I wanted to see if it would help if I stuck it out. After 6 months of this, in March 2022, my doctor suggested that I go back to NP Thyroid and just try it to see if it made a difference since it seemed as though I’d exhausted all other options. I did reluctantly switch and in April 2022 I lost at least 1/4 of what hair I have left. I’ve had to have hair extensions put in because it is so bad and I’m just at my wits end with this whole thing. When I expressed my frustration to the doctor, she took my concerns to the head doctor of the practice and they suggested I could 1) try adding 1/2 of a 25mcg synthroid to my NP or 2) lower my current NP dosage. I’m so confused because I just want someone to tell me what is happening!! Why are these changes in medication causing me to loose all my hair?
Janie Bowthorpe
Because you’ve never achieved this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Meredith Barber
Thank you so much for your reply. I’ve desperately been trying to get answers as to if it’s the actual medication or my thyroid itself and nobody can seem to give me the answer so I do thank you for confirming that you believe I’m not optimal. I’m going to post the last year’s labs for reference so you have a little more information:
04/21 (right when things started getting really bad) FT3 – 3.0, FT4 – .98. TSH .06
08/21 FT3 – 2.7, FT4 – .68, TSH 1.560
11/21 FT3 – 3.59, FT4 – .73, TSH 1.08
03/22 FT3 – 2.01, FT4 – .64, TSH 1.19
04/22 FT3 – 2.90, FT4 – 1.11, TSH .000
Based on these lab values, what is your recommendation on how I should get myself optimal. It seems my doctor wants me to tell them what to do and I have not got a clue. I really appreciate any insight that you have, more than you could imagine.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi. You didn’t give ranges. But I’m assuming that the April FT3 of 2.9 wasn’t optimal at all. In the US, usually the free T3 range goes up to 4.2 or 4.4. What we do, if the free T3 isn’t optimal, is raise until it is. And this is the problem with compounded. It’s a set amount. Hard to raise a set amount. Better to be on T4/T3, or a prescription NDT that has different MG tablets for raising. When we get the free T3 optimal, the free T3 is usually around 1.4ish if the range goes up to 1.7ish.
With straight T3, we can raise it every week. With T4, we have to wait a few weeks to test after any raise
Meredith Barber
Hi Janie. I’m sorry, the ranges are: FT3 2.0 – 4.90, FT4 .75 – 1.54
I’m going to work with my NP and see if we can add some synthetic T3 to my NP thyroid and do labs often to monitor the FT3 until it gets in the upper range. I wish I did well on synthetic T4/T3 but I did not when I tried it last year, which was actually when all of my problems started. I’m sure it was because I wasn’t optimal and maybe if we would have corrected that then, I’d feel differently. Thanks so much for your feedback, it is very helpful and hopefully I’ll be feeling much better soon.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Meredith. You may be blaming the wrong thing when you say didn’t do well because of the synthetics. iIt may have been about being underdosed, or rising RT3, or adrenals etc.
Meredith Barber
Hey Janie – I just wanted to follow up with you on this post. My practitioner added additional T3 to my treatment of 2.5 grains of NP and my Frees went down not up. I’m so confused. This was after 5 weeks of adding 5MCG of T3. I feel like I’m just banging my head against a wall here.
FT3 – Value 2.44, Range 2.0 – 4.9
FT4 – Value .76, Range .75 – 1.54
TSH – Value .01, Range .50 – 5.0
RT3 – Value 14.4 (previous value was 19.2 in May)
Janie Bowthorpe
When we add t3 to our treatment, it’s going to suppress our own release. That’s why we have to have a replacement dose. 5mcg is definitely NOT a replacement dose. Doctors don’t get this. So we get worse. We raise the amount of T3 until we achieve what is explained on this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal Don’t skim the latter. Truly read it all.
Audrey
Former Armour taker, came here to say that I started feeling HORRIBLE around January of this year. I assumed it was due to overdoing it around the holidays, staying up late and going to holiday events etc. It wasn’t until Mid February that I decided i should get some lab work done because I was a complete zombie, couldn’t think straight, was having the worst brain fog of my life, hair was falling out, skin was incredibly dry, etc. I was so tired in the morning that I forgot and took my 240MG armour that morning, had labs done at 2pm and my TSH was still over 5.88, which is really high for me, I like to stay in the optimal range. Ive since switched to levo 125MG and 180MG NP Thyroid and my levels are back within the “normal” range, but my dr is going to add some Cytomel in to help. My new Dr told me the Armour just wasn’t working for me anymore, I had been on it for at least 5 years around the same dose. I hadn’t had labs done in over a year prior to my rapid decline, so Id like to weigh in, that I do believe Armour stopped working for me. Im not sure when exactly it stopped working because I was playing with other non thryoid prescription meds and just assumed that is why i was feeling off, but now that I’m on non Armour meds I feel much better and can start putting my life back together. Now that Im feeling better I will be getting back to eating better, exercising and reducing stress, all those things were near impossible to do when you can barely drag yourself out of bed in the morning!
Janie Bowthorpe
Sure glad you figured out what was going on and have moved to a non-Armour source and are doing so much better. There was a time last year that one social media group was irresponsibly shouting that “none” of the NDT’s worked. But that was false. Many patients continued to do great with optimal labs to prove it for many months, even after picking up a new prescription. So if more testimonies like yours seem to be popping up this year with Armour, we’ll have to keep an eye out. All in all, it may turn out better for thyroid patients to move to T4 and T3. But we’ll see.
Ricardo
Hi, I am a 50 years old man from Switzerland (Europe). Sorry for my English! I learned a lot from Janie’s site. My thyroid was removed in 2011 due to cancer. Until 2015/2016, I took ERFA, with great success and stable values (TSH almost suppressed, FT4 in the middle of the range, FT3 end high of the range, feeling great). Then the problems started… I switched to NP Thyroid until 2019, where suddenly I found myself hypothyroid with the same dose as before (with 2 grains the TSH went from 0 to 9!). After several attempts with combinations of synthetics, but never finding a dosage that worked for me, I’ve been taking Armour 2 grains for the past year, and I’ve pretty much regained the same stability and numbers as in 2011 with 125 mg of ERFA. So for me it’s working. Only big problem, it has become very (too) expensive and difficult to import from the US. And it is not covered by our health care system.
Anna
Hi Ricardo!
I can only agree with you. I am also in Europe (Belgium) and Erfa stopped working for me a few years back. Armour has gotten so expensive I decided to try Thyroid-S from Thailand instead…and it works very well. Granted, the price of Thai NDT has increased as well in the past year, but it is still less expensive than Armour and – best of all – it is working! I was so frustrated with Erfa that stopped working and caused a lot of strange symptoms, and the manufacturer just claims they did not change anything…I have end-stage Hashimoto´s or technically Ord´s disease which means my thyroid gland is atrophied, so levothyroxine only is completely inadequate for me.
Laura T
Currently tanking on armour and terrified to go backwards to that dark hell of symptoms….There are so many thyroid S on google search can anyone point me in the right direction. I would so so appreciate it!!
Janie Bowthorpe
Laura, make sure that your tanking isn’t because you have never fully read this and followed it: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Julie Young
Hi Janie, I’ve been taking Armour 120 mg for the past 7 years with no issues as far as I know. However, my labs have NEVER been optimal. January 31 I got Covid and was sick for 2 weeks, during that time I just forgot to take my thyroid medication. So, I just never took it again. I wanted to see how I did off of it because Ive been on Thyroid medication for 30 years. The only reason I went on it in the first place was I had experienced a lot of fatigue at the time and the Dr. thought it might help me, even tho my tests were normal. OMG! I had no experience at the time and thought all Dr.s knew what was best for me. I never questioned anything so I just did what they said. But, I know better now! I’ve experienced a lot of fatigue, some days are good, and a couple days I felt like a Zombie, some hair loss but over all I’m ok now. Here in Mexico, where I’m at currently they suggested Novotiral which is levoxythyrine 100 mg and Cytomel 20 mg in 1 tablet. However, Im having new labs done tomorrow, 6 weeks ago i had them done and all my numbers were on the low side which would be expected. I’m just wondering if I see what my labs show after tomorrow and determine if my thyroid is going to do its job or not. After that I will see if going back on medicine is necessary or not. Do you feel I’m playing with fire here and crazy or do you feel it’s worth exploring? I’m taking selenium 200 mg w/Iodine. I had a recent ultra sound done and I’ve had 3 nodules for many years but they have all stayed the same size(not cancerous).
Janie Bowthorpe
Don’t feel bad about not questioning doctors back in the day. We were all taught they were one step away from being God because of their medical school training. But turns out their medical school training has ALWAYS sucked to the Nth degree in the thyroid arena. That is exactly why I felt pushed to start a patient-to-patient movement so we could FINALLY get well. And it worked.
Listen, you may have always had some kind of problem due to never being optimal. It’s like what you said about the present–you state you have experienced fatigue, some days feeling like a zombie, some hair loss, and THREE nodues for many years…YET YOU SAY YOU ARE OK. NONE of those are okay!! It’s like you have lessened your idea of what ok is. What you describe is NOT ok. Maybe that’s what you’ve done all these. years…decided you were okay when you never have been!
Also know that being on thyroid meds that long has probably shrunken your thyroid.i.e. it’s very doubtful your thyroid is doing its job.
Jcr
Does anyone have a doctor in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area that they are happy with?
Lisa
Hello, I had been in Armour 15 mg since 2016 without issue. Labs had been great until this past year. Now I have changed medical insurance and they chose to switch me to NP thyroid and then sent me a message from an endocrinologist who wants to now put me on Synthroid which didn’t work for me the first time I took it.
Janie Bowthorpe
If we are truly hypothyroid, only 15mcg would do nothing. Twenty years of experiences on that.
Mary Ann
Armour is not working for me. Naturethroid worked. Why was it recalled? Here’s what I think.
The FDA tested some lots and said they were only 89% effective. 89% is way better than what Armour is doing (nothing). Pfizer and Abbott labs make the synthetic crap and perhaps they were the culprits who worked with the FDA to shut down RLC labs. I think we need a class action lawsuit
Janie Bowthorpe
Mary Ann, Armour is working for the majority if they go by this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
And synthetics also work if you understand to go by what’s on the latter page. They definitely are not crap as long as T3 is also in one’s treatment.
No, pharms don’t work with the FDA to shut down another pharm.
Lisa
Thank you for this post. My pharmacy decided to switch me to Armour from NP Thyroid in February, and I’ve felt like I did pre-Hashi’s diagnosis ever since. My doc told me “thyroid labs normal” (after testing only TSH and free T4), despite TSH rising–I’m optimal under 1. Just tested my cortisol (very low) and am doing the recommended thyroid tests next week. Thank you!
Michele
Wow. So much about the last year is finally making sense. I’ve been on Armour for almost 20 years. My labs tanked last summer *Free T3 AND FreeT4* and I ended up in the ER with tachycardia. I had no idea what was going on until now. I take my Armour under my tongue and noticed they tasted and smelled different. Also the pills were softer. The old pills were incredibly hard and had to use a pill cutter to cut them. The new bad batch armour are so soft I can cut them with my fingers. I’m in Connecticut, btw.
Marco
Hi, I noticed that too with the pills. I am currently on pills with Exp 09/2022. When I opened them for the first time, I also found them much harder, couldn’t break them by fingers, which on the older bottles worked very well, they were softer. I am not sure, but I have the feeling if they are fresh out of the bottle, they are very hard, but over time, probably because they get some air and moisture, they become softer, and can easily be broken by fingers. I compared the old ones from 2021 with the 09/22 and another bottle 04/23, they are exactly the same, but if newly opened very hard. What I noticed though is they nearly don’t smell anymore. They used to have this intense “porky” smell, just like Nature, but the newly opened bottles don’t smell at all.
So I am not sure yet if they work or not, last year was great, but since a few weeks I am feeling very tired. My labs 3 weeks ago were still ok though, 90% ft3, 45% ft4, slightly lower then a few months ago when ft4 was at 56%.
Sheila in Texas
Michelle…I’m in the same boat as you. I have been on Armour now for at least 15 years and out of nowhere my labs tanked while on my regular Armour dose and to boot I ended up in the ER with PVC’s or Premature Ventricular Contractions on 3 of 4 chambers of my heart. I have cut back my Armour to a 1/4 of the dose which works for about 5 days and then I’m back in full heart mode and what I can only describe as on the verge of a heart attack. It does seem to subside when I go off of the thyroid for days. Sadly I’m SUPER HYPO (TSH has now been 9 or more when I used to be 1.2) and my T3 labs also show not enough T3/T4. I have symptoms such as hair loss, cold intolerance and constipation so as much as I hate it I might have to go back to the T4 now. The Armour is just not working for me anymore. I would assume it’s either something has changed in the Armour (maybe different inactive ingredients) or my body has changed. I am visiting the T3 pooling information as I do have anemia of unknown origin (low Hematocrit, hemoglobin, RBC and WBC) consistently now for two years. Thanks to Covid craziness working 12 hour days I am assuming adrenals are probably compromised as well and need to address that. Also I noticed the cost of Armour has skyrocketed and almost not worth the cost.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Sheila. You know, there are some clues in what you said. i.e. that what you are going through is due to now having stressed adrenals, not that Armour itself was the cause or is not working anymore. And the stressed adrenals are not just due to COVID.
For one, a TSH of 1.2 underscores that you have been underdosed for awhile if that was your TSHl. That means you couldn’t have had optimal frees. When optimal, the TSH ends up way below range, not 1.2 Here’s what optimal truly means: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal Take the time to truly read all of what’s on the latter page. It’s you.
And now that you have stressed adrenals from potential underdosing yourself so long, you have to properly treat that in order to stop the reactions you’ve been having, plus to be able to get optimal without those reactions.
And RT3 is important to know about, too. Because you’ve potentially been underdosed all this time, you may now have issues which have raised the RT3, the inactive hormone. Those are mentioned here: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3
And guess what? Moving to nothing but T4 is only going to make all of this even worse.
Sheila in Texas
Thank you Janie so much for the advice. I just ordered your Hashimoto book today and will also read the STTM one as well and start doing some diligent studying. I’m going to my PCP tomorrow to get my labs again and talk about a Saliva Cortisol test to start. Thankfully he’s onboard with the saliva cortisol test, compounding prescriptions and NDT so I’m very thankful. The past two years I have had unknown severe weight loss along with some alarming bloodwork that keeps getting worse so I am off to another hematologist/oncologist as well in a few weeks. Hopefully I can get my thyroid levels optimal somehow and address the other issues as well. Currently it frightens me to worry about taking my whole 90mg (supposed to take 2 x’s a day) of Armour not knowing if my heart is going to go off the chart or not so I have been so reluctant and only doing 45mg a day or less or not at all. I have sadly forced myself into a big hypothyroid crisis for so long now I think it is actually the cause of some of my heart issues and perhaps even the unknown anemia (not iron or B12 which have been taken by another oncologist). I am so used to the weight gain with hypothyroidism that the weight loss is really throwing me off even though I have 100% hypo symptoms on every other aspect. Long road ahead! Thank you again for the advice!
10/2021
TSH : 7.16H ( 0.40-4.50)
T3, FREE – 3.5 (2.3-4.2 pg/ml)
T4, FREE – 0.7L (0.8-1.8ng/dl)
Lisa
I am reading a few people so far have stressed Adrenals. I just got back my adrenal Salivary hormone test and mine are in the trash. I have nothing after 12pm.
Janie Bowthorpe
And this is what only 15mcg would do to you. Horribly stress the adrenals. Thus you definitely had issues on such a paltry dose. Time to study chapter 6 in this book: https://laughinggrapepublishing.com/product/sttm/. Treating your now poor adrenal function is also the only way to get out of your hypothyroid state.
Gianluca
Hi Janie. Since starting the Lugols Iodine, I have noticed I need much less Thyroid, when before I needed a grain to bring my FT3 at 4.2, with the iodine I can bring my FT3 up from 3.0 to 4.0 with half grain, and with a 1/4 of a grain at 3.7 TSH at 1400. Do you still think a 15mg NP Thyroid at this point can be just counterproductive? or based on the level it is doing actually fine? I also deal with adrenal issues
Janie Bowthorpe
Untreated or poorly treated cortisol issues cause FT3 to “look” good, but may be this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/pooling
Gianluca
Hi Janie, I just bought your updated book with the adrenal content and looking forward to reading it. Thanks so much for your work.
If I’m understanding well the case for Sheila and Michelle, that had trouble with tachycardia or PVC, are not actually due to some strange reaction to Armour thyroid, but to the levels of FT3 and FT4 decreasing substantially, due to a possible change in the Armour formulation. Therefore, stressing the adrenals more, until there is allot of Adrenaline being produced causing PVC, and Tachycardia, correct?
Janie Bowthorpe
Adrenaline can also be released in reaction to a problem. And adrenaline is a major cause of our heart palps etc, we as patients have noticed.
Sheila in Texas
…..and I also agree with Michelle and Marcos that the pills are now softer, do not smell porky, crumble easy and do not taste like they used to when used under the tongue. Something has definitely changed.
Janie Bowthorpe
And again, those changes to the pill may be a concern, but what I explained to you before this is more likely the cause of your issues.
renae mills
Glad to have found this article. Refilled Armour end of Feb and getting a lot of issues now. (muscle aches, dizzy/brain fog). was on Armour 150mg but I’m going back to 180mg as I might be slightly underdosed… My doc will prescribe compounded, just got a call from pharmacy which said (180mg) is a high dose; and they have to use synthetic T3 and T4. My doc called in 150/37.5 (T4/T3). This doesn’t seem to match what I’ve seen about amounts of T4 and T3 in Armour? (38/9 for one grain). Which would be 114/27 for 180mg? My doc said 150/37.5 is the equivalent of 180mg of Armour? maybe I should get 60mg NDT compounded x 3/day?? The pharmacy has lower doses of NDT compounded, so not sure what to do…. I’ve been on NDT for years, wish they would bring back Naturthroid – did the best on that.
Janie Bowthorpe
Yes, your issue may be about being underdosed. And your doc is uninformed. 3 grains/180 mg equals 114mcg T4 and 27mcg T3. Our goal is explained here, no matter how much of a working NDT it takes. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Diane
Very interesting discussion. I too, over the past year, have seen my T4 tank to being almost out of the range and my T3 raise. Of course TSH is almost non existent. And I feel hypo. I am on 90 mg compounded not and 50 mcg levo…had to do that once Naturethroid disappeared….T4 too low. Thyroid gland was nuked so the pituitary can signal all it wants…won’t do anything…try and get a doc to understand that one. I have to run the labs again as my doc NEVER runs the full panel…RT3 and antibodies. I get tired of arguing with him. I will investigate this pooling concept more fully and probably do the saliva tests recommended. I cannot take Armour…I react to one of the proteins in it.
Janie Bowthorpe
Diane, T4 will go low when not on enough T3 in NDT. Yet I’m reading you also take 50 mcg T4 on top of the 90 mg compounded NDT? Might want to check your RT3.
Dawn
Hi,
Going to see my MD soon. I have been on strictly T3, doing okay but really miss the NDT’s. Has anyone recently tried NP again? I did so well on it,,,
Thank you!
Janie Bowthorpe
There are lab results being presented by some that do imply it’s working again. There are others with labs that are odd. But hopefully, if you want to try it, you’ll understand the following and see if you achieve it: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Dawn
Thank you, Janie. I just had labs done, slightly over the high end for T3 and very low T4. First time ever, one antibody came in as normal, the other was 72. I still have very deep muscle aches in my arms and legs, some irritability. Not sure why this is happening.
Janie Bowthorpe
When FT3 is quite high and you aren’t on enough T3 to do that, it can point to this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/pooling Plus an antibody at 72 = Hashimoto’s. You might need to be reading these books: https://laughinggrapepublishing.com/product-category/hashimotos/
Dawn
You are a genius, Janie! I didn’t even think about high cortisol. It makes complete sense. I have been under a tremendous amount of stress at work these past few months. The s/s are what I have been experiencing. Thank you for always pointing us in the right direction! You are a gem!
Janie Bowthorpe
You’re welcome. And 20 years of listening to patients has filled my brain. 🙂
Donna
Was taking syntroid and decided to do half armour thyroid and half synthroid after a few weeks was in the hospital with a tsh of 17.5 I live in NY. I also called the company to have them check the medication haven’t heard anything from them since I am back on synthroid and not feeling well because I need t3 tried the cytomegalovirus and that seems to to work any longer either We REALLY NEED To Do SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!!
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Donna. None of what you describe is the fault of T3 or Armour. For one, we don’t normally add NDT to T4. NDT is already 80% T4 as it is, along with the T3 in NDT. And if your TSH got that high, that implies being underdosed anyway. And T4-only, which is what Synthroid is, doesn’t work well for the majority of us. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/t4-only-meds-dont-work And with NDT alone, or T4/T3 we have to achieve this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Lynn
Hi.
I have thought I was stable and optimal for around a year, till I refilled my Armour before Christmas. I was steadily losing weight and had no symptoms till then. But, I could feel the crash over this past month and just got tested. I am currently taking 180 mg of Armour and 25 mcg of T3. My labs and ranges over that time are as follows:
5/10/21
TSH <.01
Ft3 4 (rr 2.3-4.2)
Ft4 1.5 (rr .8-1.8)
Reverse t3 10 (rr 8-25)
8/9/21
TSH <.01
Ft3 3.9 (rr 2.3-4.2)
Ft4 1.4 (rr .8-1.8)
Reverse t3 9 (rr 8-25)
2/10/22
TSH <.01
Ft3 3 (rr 2.3-4.2)
Ft4 1.2 (rr .8-1.8)
Reverse t3 12 (rr 8-25)
I've had a major return of symptoms since my last refill a little over a month ago. It's possible I've had an increase in antibodies, but I'm on ldn and they've been low and stable for a long time. Is there something I'm not seeing? Or is this the Armour? And what would be the best course of action at this point? Add T3? Switch to synthetic? Or get a new refill of Armour and see if it's better? I've gained 8 lbs in the last month and I'd really like it to go away!
Thanks!
Janie Bowthorpe
No, it’s not the Armour. It’s because you weren’t optimal. We see this happen constantly when people don’t understand optimal. Read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal You’ll see your free T3 was barely midrange, which is not optimal, so most people see their feel goods backfire eventually. The individuality is when they backfire. You’ll also see your RT3 is going up: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3
Lynn
I don’t understand how I was barely mid range when for the past year my free t3 was 4 and 3.9 on a reference range that is 2.2-4.2. Both of those values are in the upper quarter of that range. My ft4s were both mid reference range for the last year. That is literally what the optimal page says to shoot for. My 2/10/22 lab values are a month AFTER a refill–which is when my reverse t3 started to go up. I felt good until that refill.
Lynn
I’m really sorry if I wasn’t clear. I added the 2021 labs to show that I was optimal for a year. My frees and reverse t3 WERE where they should be. Until I refilled in December. The Feb 2022 labs are just now, after being able to feel the change after that refill. My dr said the clinic has recently had a lot of long time optimal and stable Armour patients ask to test because they feel off suddenly.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Lynn. Rising RT3 can lower Free T3. So it appears you need to figure out what has been pushing the RT3 up and correct those causes. This: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3
Robert Kish
I am a man from NE Ohio who was diagnosed with Graves Disease in my early 20’s, I was treated with radioactive iodine twice about a year apart. I’m now in my 40’s, I took levothyroxin, 150mcg for most of the interim. I asked my doctor to switch to a generic Armour (AP 331) about a year ago and initially I felt fantastic. I was running just for the fun of it (very uncharacteristic). In August 2021 my labs were as follows:
TSH: 5.02
T4: 6.2
T3 uptake: 24
Free thyroxine
I was experiencing breathing problems and my pulse ox was 92 at the doctors office. I have been monitoring since. In spite of this my doctor’s advice was to keep the same dosage 90mcg plus 7.5 mcg (15mcg tablet broken in half). I rejected his advice and I have found that a 90 mcg tablet broken into quarters (~67.5mcg) or 5 15mcg tablets (75mcg) tend to work well enough without the labs to prove it (I am due for blood work but my doctor retired and I am looking for a new one).
Background information: I have been on a carnivore diet since July 4th, 2020 and for the first time in my adult life I am not obese. I dropped from 265 to (currently) 205 without a formal exercise program; I garden and take walks. At the start of each season (spring, summer, etc.) I fast for two or more days to kickstart my health. I keep a log of dosage, weight, pulse ox daily.
Janie Bowthorpe
Congrats on the weight loss!
Robert, what has happened to you is your doctor has seriously underdosed you. When you were underdosed, the good results you initially get will backfire. Thus, the symptoms you now describe. We have learned for many years now that we have to raise Armour or T4 T3 until the following is achieved: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal The amount you were on, and are still on, has never, ever achieved that. To get optimal, a large body of us are in the 3-4 grain area. Some can be slightly lower, others can be slightly higher. But it’s the goal that you will see written on the optimal page that is important.
And when we are underdosed like that, it causes a host of other problems/risks, including lowered iron, rising cholesterol and/or blood pressure, depression and more. Anyone underdosed like that will recognize growing symptoms. The individuality is which in the following list will happen to you: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/symptoms, either already or the longer you stay underdosed…
Also note your doctor doesn’t even understand the right tests. It’s always about the free T3, free T4, and RT3. The uptake is useless for our needs. And the following page explains where we have learned we need to fall in a given range because you will also see it’s where healthy people fall: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/lab-values
Alison
I’ve been on Armour 60mg and Liothironine 25 mcg both twice daily for almost a year. I just got labs done a few weeks ago and I am at optimal levels on Frees and RT3. I feel great and sleep very well. No complaints about Armour here. I live in Kansas.
caroline
Have been on Synthroid , Armour, levothyroxine for last 35 years. Synthroid-88 mg made me gain weight, no energy for 20 years. Switched to Armour 60 mg around 2010-2019. Dose was never increased. Stopped feeling good, extreme no energy came back, overall couldn’t hold my eyes open, iBS bad. Went to endo, switch me to Synthroid 88 mg . Tsh went to 10.400 then 3 months later Tsh went to .027 free t4 1.03. after a year, Switched me again to Levothyroxine 88 mg for last 6 months. my Tsh .0101, t4 free 1.46 my Tsh has been high as 14.200, as low as .01 . Feel grumpy and depressed, not much energy. started taking B1 with benfonimine for energy, magnesium, selemium, supplements to try and help with energy and thyroid. I really want to go back to Armour, not sure if I am overdosed or under. I am 67 years old, and want to feel better. do no like brain fog, and don’t like the depression I have.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Caroline. Your first problem was never increasing that 60 mg of Armour, which is simply a starting dose, until you achieved this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal The second problem was letting yourself being switched to a lousy way to treat hypo again, aka Levothyroxine. You badly need to order and read this: https://laughinggrapepublishing.com/product/sttm/
Tammis Kennedy
For Katya , you can contact Humana for a Medicare supplement and it offers a Humana pharmacy and Armor is covered.
Iris
New pills taste like (eh’hem, sorry) @ss – Los Angeles, California.
Started new bottle last week, new tablets seem harder/thinner like pics above (can’t confirm, I took the last of my previous bottle). DEFINITELY taste different, there’s a bad breath/brungwager (sp?) liver taste to them now where previously they had no taste (or slight – lost my sense of taste and smell a lot after catching COVID).
Since last week I’ve had a return of a choking feeling in my throat that I haven’t had in years, if I chew any other tablets even the pieces will feel like they’re lodged (they’re not at this point, but when I had the choking sensation in the past years ago, I def did get food/pills stuck in my throat…. it’s only been a week since taking the new pills and am very worried about the trajectory)
Had labs last Aug’21, didn’t get results, and will get them again in about a month, will ask md for both and report back.
Jay
Armour pills are stamped with a code. What letters are your pills stamped with? [Generic pills have a different stamp then the brand name Armour]
Katya
It’s so difficult trying to navigate our super awesome health care industry with a foggy brain.
My pharmacy just phoned telling me Medi-cal rules have changed since the 1st and Armour/natdessicatedthyroid is no longer covered. Medicare won’t cover…my rent/food/gas/heat goes up but my income just doesn’t.
Is there any known workarounds, discounts or substitutes?
Just yelling into the void~
Kathee
Contact the manufacturer of the Brand you are taking. All manufacturers have patient assistance programs.
I am on SSI Example I take Vyvance 70 MG $360.00. The manufacturer sends me a card to pay for the prescription
My cost $0. Very short form. Please try this. Works great
Tammis Kennedy
My doctor told me I could up my dose, and if Armour no longer works I can change to NP. My labs were free T 17. and free4 1.4, also was only 3 hours between dose 120mg Armour, and labs.I’m frustrated.Couldn’t get photo thru, but will send you some pills to see for yourself. ( can email secure address) I truly believe the porcine was cut to half.
Janie Bowthorpe
Armour has still been working for what seems like the majority if you understand this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal Is your T3 test a total T3? Wrong one, if so. And keep track of the your RT3, plus cortisol and iron.
Tammis Kennedy
I went on the “new pill” in October and went into low thyroid. The skinnier pill, from Austin compounding. Since Armor always worked so well, had no idea what was wrong.. I began upping the dose and went from 3 at 60 mg to 8 on the new pill. I felt good and Dr. told me to do my labs, so I was 17 T3 and 14 T4 ; doctor freaked out and now I’m reducing dose. It’s not where you live , eventually everyone will get this new pill from Allergan labs that bought out Armour and changed to this awful pill that’s making my life hell!!! We all need to address this …..
Janie Bowthorpe
Tammis, that is unfortunately inadequate information you have given. For one, you mention the “new pill”, but never mentioned what milligram this single pill was, how much you were on, and what is on the front and back of this pill. I’d also need a photo of the pill.
Second, your next sentence implies it’s from Austin compounding. Armour is not made by a compounder. So that is extremely confusing.
For the lab results you gave, you gave no ranges nor if those are totals or frees. You also failed to give the RT3 with range, which is very important. Additionally, we need to know if you’ve checked your adrenals and how.
This is the problem with so many reports. They are inadequate.
Tammis Kennedy
The pill is armor thyroid and the pharmacy is Austin compounding. I’ve been on Armour for 10years, have been taking 60 mg. 3x daily, stagger it over the day. It worked beautifully for me and thanks to reading your fabulous book; Stop the thyroid madness, I learned about natural thyroid. The refill on my prescription in October had these different thinner pills. I was out in Santa Fe when I started the new bottle, from one day to the next, I felt great and then I became extremely tired. Could barely drive home, drove out no problem. The new pill, ( just like the pictures on your site) is harder , thinner. I began toying with it and found when I upped my dose I was able to get back to normal energy. Dr. Manzanerro told me my labs were way high and I’m trying to reduce it. I’m very itchy. This is not the old Armour; found several old tablets here and took them and I was fine again. I believe this is the new pill Allergan labs is replacing Armour with. The bottle says level thyroxine 38 mcg. Levelthyronine 9mcg. Pharmacist I spoke to at People’s here in Austin said due to shortage of porcine they can’t get any natural thyroid. I read on Mary Shomans blog that Allergan bought out Armour, and my guess is they changed the pill. Thanks so much for returning a comment, you are helping so many people… hope I have shed some light on this medicine mix up!!!!
Janie Bowthorpe
Thanks for helping me understand that you got it a “pharmacy”. The word compounding before it implied to me that compounding is all they do. Now I get it better.
In 2009, the makers of Armour also made a change. They added more cellulose, and lowered other fillers. That made it harder. We had to learn back then to chew the tablet up to finally get the result we used to get. That may be the case with your latest batch of Armour now. The pill size though can also be due to the pill pressers they use.
And by the way, Allergan did not “buy out Armour”. Allergan purchased the former pharmaceutical that made Armour. That is different. Additionally, there has NOT been a push to get rid of NDT as that blog post you mentioned has stated.
As far as your doctor saying your labs were too high…would you post if they were the free T4 and free T3, and give the results with ranges?
Often, in their poor knowledge, doctors tell us to lower our meds due to the suppressed TSH we get. They confuse it with the low TSH from Graves disease. We do not have Grave’s, neither do we get bone loss or heart problems like Graves. Our low TSH is simply because we are taking it over by getting optimal frees. So we end up having to stand firm against doctors who give the suppressed TSH way too much credence.
Also, it’s “some” compounders which are having a hard time getting porcine. It’s not all. Compounders can be using different sources.
Please post your labs with ranges, and put whether they are free or totals.
Ginny Thomas
I became hyperthyroid in Oct. The following are the ranges the lab used.
Free T4 0.84-1.62
Free T3 2.1-3-9
My Oct. 2021 test results were:
FT4 1.49
FT3 4.4
I had extreme hyperactive symptoms including Tacycardia. We decreased by 1/2 grain and my next test I was Nov. and I tested at:
Free T4 1.34
Free T3 4.0
I tested again in Dec. and my numbers were:
FT4 1.34
FT3 4.8
Less medicine and higher numbers. I contacted Armour and we changed the batch number in case I had gotten a bad batch.
In Dec. I was having major anxiety and Tachycardia so I decrease 1/4 grain.
I just tested again this week and my numbers are:
FT4 1.23
FT3 3.5
My question is are these good numbers? The FT4 is right in the middle so I know that is ok but is the T3 ok or should it be higher?
My TSH for what it is worth is .0005 as I had cancer.
I wish Nature-thyroid would come back. I never had any problems on that medication.
Prior to becoming Hyper I lost a lot of weigh and we didn’t change my medication until I was hyper. I am planning on losing about 25 more pounds. My hair loss has slowed down and I am tired but with Tachycardia and possible A-fib that is to be expected.
Thanks for all the help. I refer a lot of people and doctors to this website and book.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Ginny. By the labs you gave for October, and based on years of patient observations, it looks like you were more overdosed. The term hyperthyroid is actually referring to a condition caused Graves disease, which wasn’t you. You may have simply had symptoms due to overdosing.
For the third set of lab results labeled as December, they look more like the free T3 was now pooling due to stressed adrenals. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/pooling
The final set of labs aren’t optimal. Here’s info on that: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
And based on your mention of Tachy and A-fib, you might want to see if you have a cortisol problem already mentioned: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info Either of those are caused by excess adrenaline, we have learned repeatedly.
Chris
I’m updating on my statements earlier this year. I take Armour 120 mg and 37.5 mcg of liothiroine. My labs were FT4 1.1 and 4.4 ft3. RT3 was a 14 consistently. Was feeling great.
The last two refills of Armour thyroid – I am feeling like absolute crap. Thyroid symptoms returning. Waking up feeling fatigued. Headaches, brain fog, no motivation.
Armour was bought by abbvie and I’m convinced they messed everything up by tweaking things around. It’s no secret symthroid if filled with a bunch of garbage fillers that actually triggers hashimotos patients. It wouldn’t surprise me if they did the same to Armour.
We need naturethroid and WP to return. I’m thinking of switching to straight up T3 as I haven’t entirely done well on a synthetic T4 therapy treatment (even with T3 added). I’ve thought about asking to go to NP but I’ve read/heard other issues with that drug. After two months of this Armour crap- I can’t take feeling like garbage again.
NDT was great bc it has the full thyroid replacement t1 2 3 and 4. Sad how these drugs get tweaked for the worst.
Janie Bowthorpe
Chris, the info you gave is far from enough to accurately investigate and come to narrow conclusions as to what is going on.
For one, an RT3 of 14, compared to where healthy people consistently fall in ranges, shows that something else is going on in your for it to be up to 14, no matter how you “felt” on it. We can feel “great” due to rising cortisol, for one. So with the last two refills of Armour, you need to relook at your RT3 before coming to your conclusions.
And to also investigate more accurately, you need to do the Discovery Steps on this page, as well as the other info, and be honest with yourself as to what you are reading there. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info Having a cortisol issue can create problems. And you gave away that you may have a cortisol problem. A bad NDT doesn’t directly cause fatigue when waking up. A CORTISOL PROBLEM does.
No, Abbie didn’t “mess everything up by tweaking things around.” What has happened to all the NDTs is because the only US supplier of porcine powder stopped supplying it in a few years ago. So two pharms admitted that they went outside of the US to get their porcine powder by saying they were now getting it from “Europe”. No telling what “Europe” means. But clearly to us as patients, this is when things started going downhill for us. It’s also why some pharms who totally failed to LISTEN to us ended up seeing the FDA recall their products. Abbvie also admitted they were still able to get their porcine powder from US and Europe sources at first. Could they now be using those so-called “Europe” sources now? Your details are not enough to prove that.
All the NDTs used to be great. That means Armour, Erfa at one time, NP, Naturethroid, WP. The problems seem to correspond to when they couldn’t get the US-based porcine anymore.
And if you move to T4 and T3, which is a fine alternative, you still have to treat the cause of that RT3: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/RT3 and still need to explore your adrenals.
Chris
I’ve had the morning and PM cortisol checks with the saliva. And blood work. All were not elevated. I go to a functional practitioner so they use optimal ranges.
Yes Armour is fluky. And yes you may be correct with the porcine. I do not do well on synthetic T4. I’m actually working with my doctor to either reduce my Armour and increase the T3. Or go straight on T3 at this rate.
Janie Bowthorpe
Chris, you are again giving inadequate information. For one, it’s not about two cortisol checks. We have learned for 20 years now we need all four, plus to understand where healthy people fall. To say “all were not elevated” says nothing. And your RT3 is clearly revealing a problem. So nothing in your post proves that Armour is “fluky”.
Judy
This has been my experience with armour. It’s not that armour isn’t working. The problem for me is that it’s not consistently working. I get three months prescription filled at a time. There are times when it’s working and my levels are optimal. I feel good. Sleeping well. Everything going well. Then when it’s time for a refill. I start to panic. Because I don’t know if the armour i am getting will be working as well as my last script. Right now I just had a refill in December and I’m not feeling good at all. I’m getting depress not sleeping well. And I know it’s the armoire It has happened before. Even adding t3. When it works. It’s great. But it not consistent. I’m tired of feeling good having all levels optimal. Only to go back to feeling like crap!
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi there Judy. Just an FYI: if this has also happened with T3 as well, then you have to pay attention to your adrenals before blaming Armour…and especially since you also mentioned issues with T3. T3 in a working NDT, and T3 by itself, can reveal an adrenal problem. And 3 months is long enough that something may have stressed one’s adrenals. Because it sounds more like some batches are revealing that your adrenals are more stressed. Especially when you mention sleeping problems. Take the time to open-mindedly study this page: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info
Sandra Hintz
I used to be on Levothyroxine and eventually changed to Armour 90 mg. What made the real change for me was reading a few books: David Brownstein, MD “Overcoming Thyroid Disorders” and Robert Thompson, MD “Iodine & Your Thyroid.” It was amazing how adding more Iodine to my diet changed everything.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Sandra. Glad you found Armour. But do know that 90mg is not enough for the vast majority, thus a return of hypothyroidism comes back with a vengeance. The individuality is when it all comes back. Not opinion, but based on 20 years of experiences. We have to raise until this is achieved: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal If you have a recent Free T3, Free T4 and RT3, might be worth comparing them to what’s on the optimal page.
JOHN WOOTON
I previously posted in November 2021 about what I thought was an allergic reaction to Armour Thyroid that had caused me to develop hives. I WAS WRONG!!
Despite being off Armour (and other medications), the hives returned! During the time that I was off Armour and on synthroid, I noticed a huge difference in how I felt and functioned! I am now back on Armour and starting to feel normal, although I am still dealing with chronic Urticaria (hives). They now say that perhaps the Covid vaccine is the causation of the hives. Truth is they just don’t know!!
In any event, I can surely attest to the fact that Synthroid is not the way to go for me! I felt like a zombie on it! Now that I am back on Armour, I am starting to return to normal, except for the hives.
I do believe that they too shall pass!
Thank you for the advocacy on Thyroid medication!
Happy Holidays to all!
Janie Bowthorpe
I and others here appreciate you for coming here to explain that hives situation.
There are an awful lot of people who are blaming Armour for problems, when in reality, the problems are due to something else. For example, many underdose themselves, thus a return of hypo. That’s not Armour’s fault. Or the T3 in Armour is causing hyperlike symptoms. That’s not Armour’s fault. Those symptoms are what the T3 in Armour is revealing: A cortisol problem.
Ginny Thomas
I took Naturethroid for years (after thyroid cancer) and then had to switch to Armour. I was taking 3 1/2 grains daily. I had perfect labs. When I switched to Armour my labs were still in the perfect range until I lost 107lbs.. Then my T4 was normal but my T3 was high. (range was 2.1-3.9) and I started showing T3 at 3.9 (range 2.1-3.9) in April of 2021. I
n September I was diagnosed with A-flutter. I immediately went and had thyroid labs and my free T4 was 1.49 (range 0.84-1.62) and my T3 was 4.4 (range 2.1-3.9). I backed off on 1.2 grain and went back 2 weeks later and tested at T4 1.34 (.084-1.62) and T3 had gone down to 4.0 (2.1-3.9). I continued with the 1/2 grain decrease and retested a this week (a month later) and my T4 is 1.45 and my T3 is 4.8. So my T4 and T3 increased with less medication. I am feeling good, my heart pounding, anxiety and short of breath have stopped. I have noticed that I have some hives but I wasn’t sure if it was heat rash as it only happens when I get warm. So where to go from here? My blood pressure and heart rate have returned to normal. I am have a little hair shedding. My doctor is probably going to want me to decrease my meds. Right now I am taking 3 grains. Why would my labs increase with less meds? The only change I made is I do not dissolve under my tongue but take orally. That helped with the heart rate and anxiety.
Janie Bowthorpe
This is just supposition, but it almost sounds like that the makers of armor are still struggling to fine-tune their product as well as their sources.
But you also might want to check your RT3 and adrenals. Rising are RT3 can cause free T4 to go up a bit. FT3 can go high due to adrenal problems. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info I’ve seen too many people blame Armour when in reality it’s due to the situations like that, or other problems in their dosing. That’s not to take away that there can be occasional issues with armour. But I still see too many people blaming Armour when it’s Other issues.
John Wooton
I had my thyroid removed in Dec 2013 and I have been on Armour for over 7 years- was taking 195 daily. Starting in mid July 2021, I begin to have allergic reactions, and would break out in hives. At first it was manageable, but continued to worsen. I either quit or changed all medications except for Armour Thyroid and there was no relief from the hives! I strongly suspected Armour, but could not believe I was allergic to it since I had been on it so long and had done well. I kept a journal of items that I ingested. I was looking for a food or whatever that triggered my breaking out. It seemed to point that the trigger for the hives was was my Armour!
I went to an allergy Dr who advised to cease Armour and go on Synthroid. At this point I would have tried anything as the hives were maddening. I was also put on a brief course of steroids. I have also been taking anti histamines since the onset in July.
Long story short- the steroids helped temporarily, but the discontinuation of Armour has totally alleviated my breaking out in hives! The attacks lessened each day and after 10 days to 2 weeks my hives totally disappeared!
No more antihistamine, no steroids, just discontinued Armour.
I believe the binding agent of Armour must have been changed and that is what I am allergic to.
Has anyone else had allergic reactions to Armour, particularly in the last year?
As for me, I am trying to adjust to Synthroid and although I feel sluggish, it is a lot better than dealing with hives!
Janie Bowthorpe
John, congrats for figuring out that you were allergic to something in armour. But before thinking it’s okay to be on nothing but Synthroid, read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/t4-only-meds-dont-work
John Wooton
Thank you for the post. I was on Synthroid in 2014 and did not do well on it.That is how I found this site. Armour was a very effective alternative for me until I started having allergic reactions. I know Synthroid may not do the job but I have no choice at this time. The Hives were terrible! I am just hoping the company that makes Armour gets straightened out. I would much prefer to take Armour rather than Synthroid. And who knows, maybe I can get back on Armour in the near future!
Janie Bowthorpe
John, I’m thinking you didn’t read what I sent you. The point you are missing is that you need to add T3 to the T4.
Karen H.
Hi John. After two years of trying to get back on Armour with ever increasing TSH (last one was 15 after years of less than 1) I finally went back to NP. All my labs after 8 weeks are great. TSH 0.725 and Free T3 and Free T4 at 75% of their respective ranges. I am also feeling so much better. Now if they can just avoid another recall…
DJ
I have also been breaking out in hives which I have never had before. The only thing different is a refill of Armour Thyroid. I checked this site to see if anyone else was experiencing this problem on Armour and am glad to have found this article. I have no clue what to do now since my Naturethroid is no longer available. Too bad the manufacturers do not seem to be held accountable anymore. We are captives of Armour at this point.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi DJ. Using T4 and T3 is a very good treatment option! One grain of NDT = 38mcg T4 and 9mcg T3. So you can figure out how much of T4 and T3 products to take based on the total amount you are taking now with Armour. Also, two grains = 76mcg T4 and 18 mcg T3, three grains = 114mcg T4 and 27mcg T3. Etc, etc. The provided pill strengths of T4 and T3 will be a little different, so we just get a close to the equivalent amount as we can.
Do know that what you are taking now as far as Armour needed to produce optimal frees. So if you weren’t yet optimal with those frees, you may need to increase T4 and T3 until you are. Read this very carefully: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Beverley Henderson
I have been taking thyroid medication for 35-40 years. As a young person I had all the symptoms of low thyroid, but no one would prescribe any meds for me because at that time I always tested in the “low normal” range. Then maybe after 20 years, “they” realized those parameters were too broad and changed them, and I was finally able to get thyroid medicine. But hypothyroidism doesn’t go away. Eventually, I developed a goiter that pressed on my throat enough to cause me to have problems with coughing and choking and I had a thyroidectomy. Now my baseline T4 is zero and though I take 300 mg of Armour Thyroid a day, I still struggle with symptoms, a sluggish body and mind, feeling cold all the time, dry skin and brittle hair, constipation, easy weight gain, and irregular sleep patterns. I noticed some people are taking T3 as well as Armour (or other product) and that the combination seemed to really help some people. And here is my question: I wondered if anyone has tried supplementing their medication with dried thyroid, adrenal, thymus, pituitary, and/or other glandulars that are available through health food stores such as iHerb.com. I have noticed people talk about the effect of cortisol on their thyroid function too. The only time I have ever dramatically lost weight was about 6 years ago. Following knee replacement surgery (the cartilage was gone and he couldn’t walk without pain), my husband developed pneumonia and was sick in the hospital for 10 weeks. I spent every waking minute I could spare from my job and my family with him. He began to recover, but then he developed a second round of pneumonia and passed away. I went to my PCP afterward, and they found that during his illness I had lost 50 lbs. This was certainly the most stressful season of my life, and at the end, I had to bury my husband of 37 years. Since then, things have still been very stressful, but in a different way. I am able to say that I have not gained it all back, but I have gained about 15 lbs. I don’t want to gain any more. It has been a while since my endo ran labs for me, so I want to see him again and talk to him about this idea (maybe). A while ago, he wanted me to go vegan–no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no fish, but I need animal protein to make my brain work. If I ate only foods from plants, I would focus on the carbs and blow up like a balloon. To effectively add desiccated glandulars to my supplements, I need to know how much of what to add. Sources of reliable information and feedback from others who have tried this idea would be very much appreciated. Thanks for listening. I appreciate STTM very much. When I first discovered your blog years ago (this is the first time I have written in), it was wonderful to experience the confirmation and realize that I was not off-base in my perceptions of my experience as a hypothyroid patient. Your words and everyone’s sharing were and are very affirming, reassuring, and confidence-building.
L.A.
Hi Beverley Henderson,
I’d like to know the answers to your questions as well. I’m just tired of relying on doctors to find what works. Let me know what you learned so far?
Amy
I have labs I can share for what it is worth; Nature-throid followed by Armour. I live in the NW, I felt fine on NT and since with Armour. No changes noticeable between these 2 meds (but 2 yrs ago terrible experience with NP).
Tests were taken in the morning** and I did not take my meds before the test.
Nature-throid (3g or 195mg)
FT3 (2.3-4.2 pg/ml) result: 3.7
FT4 (0.89-1.76 ng/dl) result: 1.2
Armour (3g or 180mg) – **the first test was taken late afternoon due to mix up. The second taken in the morn as usual.
FT3 (2-4.4 pg/ml) result: 3.2** second test: 3.6
FT4 (0.82-1.77 ng/dl) result: 1.6** second test: 1.2
Janie, Thanks for your diligence on our behalf!
Joanne
Hello all,
Well I am now on a new regimen of thyroid medication. I wanted to share in case this helps anyone else. Janie: you may not publish this but I am only sharing due to extensive research on my part. I am not recommending only sharing my story and meds journey to feel alive again.
I am on a compounded thyroid medication as RLC Labs, the maker of WP Thyroid, was recalled by the FDA for sub-potency issues. So I went the compounded route. I have been on it for awhile which was 45 mg of T4 and 9mcg of T3 with Loxoral as a filler using a gelatin capsule as opposed to a veggie capsule.. Being a celiac, I am allergic to certain fillers of which Loxoral is as it has isomalt which is made using yeast to ferment it. Anything ending in ” alt ” means yeast. Celiacs are typically allergic to yeast. I called around to other pharmacies in the states to ask some questions about the sources of the porcine as well as using another filler to top off the gel cap. I found a pharmacy who could use Vitamin C powder as a filler which is corn based. That I can tolerate. I went back to my original pharmacist and asked if he could use Vitamin C, too, as a filler and he said he could. Also, the T3 in the formula had traces of mcc which I am also allergic to. So, my pharmacist called my doctor to change the entire meds. I am now on 65 mg of porcine and he eliminated the T3 as it had mcc in it. I was reacting to even that small amount with typical celiac reactions. There are also a few traces of T1 and T2. I am sharing this as this is as close as possible to the WP I did so well on without the calcitonin, inulin and iodine of which there were small amounts anyway. I have been telling my pharmacist if there was some way to make a ” WP twin. ” I pick up the new thyroid meds tomorrow, Friday, October 15. Since I am sensitive to the gel cap I asked both men if I could take it sublingual thus bypassing swallowing the gel cap plus the gut. We shall see where all this goes. I will keep all informed and if this works I would recommend if you are sensitive to fillers give Vitamin C powder a try. My local pharmacist said he also has other fillers which are non-allergenic along the lines of vitamins should it still not work. Take care one and all….
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Joanne. Remember the info here: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Joanne Seward
Hi Jay,
Not too bad….it’s my only recourse as I have to do something..i don’t have a thyroid…cancer in 1992…
Still did best on WP Thyroid…
Best to you..give it a try..
Joanne Seward
It could also be they are using bioidentical hormones and not porcine. Also,
I had an idea to write to the US FDA and ask them about RLC Labs and WP Thyroid. Porcine may be coming from Brazil or Europe…will put that in letter, too…Where is it sourced from?..ugh🤔🥴
Joanne
Eric
Hello, the porcine comes from Europe. The places I tracked down are from Spain, Denmark, and Germany. There is one new source coming from China that actually lists the COA for compounders. I have compounded meds from sources from Europe as well as the one from China. I have armour on hand as well. For me, they all have the same effect. It seems if they are missing the thyroglobulin in it. Having thyroglobulin in the meds, which is a protein, makes it a biologic. The FDA has gotten involved more and in order to have that protein, they have to have a biologic application or new NDA for commercial products. It is that protein is what gives it its magic. (My opinion) However, if it works for you then good. Everyone is different. Make sure adrenals, iron etc are optimal as well.
I do know that they use solvents, heat in the process.
Joanne Seward
Hi Eric,
Thanks..did not know about the thyroglobulin. Wondering now if not in my compounded meds. Will em my pharmacist. I’m doing so so on my compounded meds but did better on WP because I think the porcine powder is not as good now. Maybe its watered down and also maybe RLC Labs is not making it because they can’t get back the
” best ” porcine like they used to have. How do you know if the thyroglobulin is present anyway?
Also, I have developed tinnitus in my right ear. Is that due to either bring hypo or hyperthyroid? Anyone out there shed light on this…most annoying…
Thanks in advance.
Gail
Joanne,
I found an interesting note on RLC Labs website that states their Thyroid USP supplier is making their product available to compounding pharmacies. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad, given what happened with recalls, etc. Here is a link:
https://www.rlclabs.com/availability-update.html The pharmacy said it is sourced in the states and they do independent testing on it to make sure it falls within certain parameters. I have been taking a combo of Armour and compounded and after some experimentation I have found that the Armour seems to work better/seems more potent. I am switching to all Armour to see how it goes. I am not quite optimal yet so that may have something to do with my results.
I do get tinnitus as one of my symptoms of hypothyroid, but sometimes hypo and hyper symptoms can be the same. I would say that something is off, because it does go away for me when I’m feeling good.
Eric
I have porcine from “rlc’s” supplier. The lab is in the states but the raw porcine (frozen thyroid) comes from outside the states. I was told that the pigs are no longer slaughtered for thyroids in the US. Thyroids must come from out of the country. I don’t know why, maybe trade deals. This lab is tied to RLC so it raises questions. Best of luck to you.
Joanne Seward
Hi Gail,
I do agree that some symptoms are the same for being either hypo or hyper thyroid. I thought it was my imagination but so glad to read someone else feels the same..they do overlap.
Janie Bowthorpe
Probably the majority of symptoms between true hypothyroid vs hyperthyroid/Grave’s are not the same. True hyperthyroidism/Grave’s can result in a higher heartrate, but most with hypo don’t see a higher heartrate. Instead, a higher heartrate can come when T3 in one’s treatment is revealing a cortisol problem. i.e. you have to have the right amount of cortisol for T3 to get to the cells. Without the right amount of cortisol, hyper-like (not Grave’s) symptoms can happen due to T3 going high in the blood.
Hypothyroid can result in fatigue, but it’s usually in the later afternoon. Grave’s can cause fatigue, but it can be at any time.
Grave’s/hyperthyroidism can often cause weight loss. Only a minority with hypothyroidism (not Hashi’s) will see that, as compared to the majority who gain.
Grave’s/hyperthyroidism can cause heat intolerance. For hypothyroid patients, that can be more about having low aldosterone (which happens with a cortisol problem for many).
With Hashimoto’s, the swing causing a destruction of the thyroid can cause hyper-like symptoms, which isn’t necessarily Grave’s disease.
Eric
The test used to check for hormonal content is called chromatography as the fda no longer wants it standardized using the iodine content. Part of this assay process is to also use a protein eating enzyme to break down the thyroglobulin. My concern is also the use of the many solvents. I wasn’t aware of this until I researched this stuff. I have compounded meds but it feels the same as the armour. As always do what feels right. The meds work for some so I can’t say it doesn’t work at all but it doesn’t for me.
Starr D.
Just wanted to bring up something about assaying processes, since you’re one of the few
people I’ve ever seen talk about it on these sites. I got hit very badly when Synthroid
was changed by its manufacturer in various ways, in 1982-83 (I was in college & had
to drop out, because the new Synthroid made me so sick.) Because of how bad my
health became, I’ve had a several chats with folks at the FDA over the years about
these thyroid meds. With Synthroid’s changes, they told me that not only had the
“inactive” ingredients been changed a bit (and this can affect how you use and absorb
the “active” ingredient of the pill), but that also, the assaying method had been changed,
going from one based on iodine content to using, instead, the HPLC method (High-Pressured
Liquid Chromatography.) In the first few years after they changed the assaying method,
they would assure me that this was a better method than the iodine content one….
After some years had passed, though, an FDA guy told me that he felt the Chromatography
method was NOT as good as the iodine content one, but that they wouldn’t be changing back.
I don’t know if he felt it if the iodine content one was better for just synthetic thyroid meds or
the natural ones, too, but that was his feeling about it. I wish they’d just left Synthroid alone
back then, because it’s the only thyroid drug that helped me have some kind of better quality
of life….I haven’t done well on anything since they’ve changed it. It’s been hard…my best to you.
Janie Bowthorpe
I love your post’s information, Starr.
By the way, something doesn’t add up that you haven’t done well since then, when most people are doing great if they understand this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal The latter is the goal with a working NDT (Armour still works for many, and NP Thyroid “may” be working again) or with T4/T3, or even T3-only (with an optimal FT3 as the goal).
Joanne Seward
Hi Janie,
It has been awhile since I have written. I am still on my compounded thyroid medication. It does contain porcine powder. When I have asked my local pharmacist where he gets it from he says PCCA here in the states. I have asked him to ask them where is the source of the porcine from. He says they refuse to say. So thinking maybe it was just this pharmacy in Maryland I called 3 others.
Same story! So, I took it upon myself to call PCCA directly. A woman answered and I told her everything. She said all I can tell you is that it does NOT come from China. When I pressed her she said,
” even I work here and they don’t tell me.” So I told her that raises a red flag. She kind of agreed. Now I am thinking about going in front of our Congress here or something and demanding answers and get it out into the open. Would you happen to know what the secrecy is for?..is it quality, sub par pigs, the country, money, or whatever. This hurts the consumers or the patients.
Your thoughts…
Joanne
Janie Bowthorpe
The secrecy is most likely to protect their source from other pharmaceuticals, in my mind. But I completely and totally agree with you that the secrecy hurts us.
Jay
How is the compounded porcine working for you? I was thinking about trying it.
Janie Bowthorpe
Just remember that whatever you try, this is the goal based on 20 years of experiences: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Mateja
Does anyone else notice mild bladder leakage? I picked up a new prescription of Armour and have noticed a change with my bladder. I am in my 30’s and have never had kids so this is very new side effect for me. Didn’t notice any change in the consistency of the pill though.
Angie F.
Not bladder leakage, but I did have IC symptoms for a couple of months pretty badly. I did have a bladder infection, but symptoms persisted a while after abx. Some vaccine pts reported IC symptoms also. What is find interesting is that symptoms resolved on new or different fills.
Harold M
It’s like a never ending nightmare. I have hypo and Adrenal Fatigue. My Armour stopped working and sent me back down the same rabbit hole. I don’t have anything left to climb another mountain.
Janie Bowthorpe
Your Armour may not have stopped working. We all have to cover all bases before assuming that. There are still many reporting doing well on it at this day and time. For example, it can seem to stop working due to never having raised until your frees were optimal. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Katherine Anne Lipp
I have Subacute Thyroiditis, how do I get inflammation from my thyroid to go down, I am on good diet and great shape, and on armour thyroid. I take lots nutrition, and vitamins, all test show I am ok. Not sure what to do next. Had it for 3 months.
Janie Bowthorpe
Sometimes, subacute thyroiditis will go away after 1 1/2 years at the max. In the meantime, there are several great anti-inflammatories you can explore: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/inflammation I also wonder if LDN can help you aka low dose naltrexone.
Judy
Hi Janie
Are you still on sigma pharma t3. And how much are you on. Do you find that it’s not as strong as cytomel? I just got my script filled and I like it better then cytomel
Thanks
Judy
Janie Bowthorpe
I am still using it and find it equally as good as cytomel.
Audry Cece
How about the generic version, liothyronine? Do you know if people typically have a worse or same experience as cytomel?
Janie Bowthorpe
Even most of the generics can work as long as you’re trying to get an optimal free T3.
Hadassah
Janie I was on NT and NP . I no longer trust any of the NDT’s. It’s a shame but that’s how it is. I was originally when I started with T3 on the Paddock T3. It worked well for me. Now it became Mayne Pharma. As far as I know the fillers are still the same. I had TT and have Hashimoto. I have allergies to corn starch Manitol, Lactose.
What I don’t understand is why these thyroid meds contain fillers that can in many cases cause allergic reactions ? After all they are made for thyroid patients . Why can’t they produce thyroid meds with fillers that have the least allergic reactions for the thyroid patients. I’m very limited as to which thyroid meds I can dose with. The same goes for Synthroid . It has Acai that caused my heart to race. Switching to another brand made a huge difference.
Thank You Janie For All The Wonderful Things You Do For The Thyroid Community.
Annette
I switched to Armour a few months ago, and recently had labs done with a new endo. I am currently on Armour 60mg.. (previously on Levothyroxin 88mcg and Liothyronine 10mcg). My current labs had TSH at 21.20, Free T4 at .74. She didn’t run any T3 labs at all, and told me it doesn’t matter when you are taking Armour (?!?!) Background history: Total thyroidectomy in 1995 for thyroid cancer. I-131 radiation (150mci) and have kept my TSH suppressed ever since. My TSH has never been above1 in years. Also… breast cancer and mastectomy in March 2021. That is why I asked to switch meds…. I had read that Levo could be related to breast cancer. I am meeting this endo next week. Not sure how to educate her on labs. (She just finished her fellowship and this is her first month as an endo on her own) Any advice would be appreciated
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Annette. You are severely underdosed on Armour. One grain/60 mg is simply a starting dose from which we raise from by 1/2 grain every two weeks, slowing down somewhere in the two grains area to do the free T4 and free T3. So your labs fit holding on to just a starting dose. And it DOES fit to have the free T3 no matter what thyroid meds we are on. Read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Marie
I just realized the 90mg dose I got from Kaiser 10 days ago is why my nails are peeling, I’m constipated and gaining weight with no change in diet. Almost like it was when I ran out and my DR refused to give exception for insurance! I can’t report this to her, I’ll get an “I told you so”!
The CVS script from July was good but I can’t afford $55 for 30 day. Aren’t there more than one manufacturer of Armour? I won’t go back to NP thyroid, but what about Nature throid or the W one, sorry my memory is terrible now! I can’t go through this again. I just slept most of the day away and zero energy
I’m in OC, California
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Marie. 90 mg of my Armour isn’t working because it hardly makes anyone optimal. It’s having an optimal free T3 and free T4 which changes lives, and even 120 mg doesn’t achieve that in the vast majority. We have to keep raising until we achieve the following: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Kim
Just wanted to share my experience. Don’t think Armour is working for me right now. I live in GA and I’m taking 120mg of Armour with 25 mcg of SR T3 from a compounding pharmacy in California. I know SR T3 is controversial and I’ve had issues with SRT3 in the past but NOT with this pharmacy. I’ve been slowly increasing the dose over many months with a coinciding/consistent increase in free T3 levels. I’ve been doing well over the last year until recently. Return of Typical hypo symptoms for me- fatigue, bloating, weight gain, etc. My results from 5/19/21 were
Free T4 1.0 (0.8-1.4)
Free T3 = 3.6 (2.3-4.2)
RT3 = 8
MD at that time raised SR T3 from 20mcg to 25 mcg
Results from 8/25/21
Free T4 = .8
Free T3 = 3
RT3 = 7
Not sure what to do now as I’ve been on synthetic combo before and was doing much better with this combo. 🥲
Janie Bowthorpe
The only issue that could point to Armour is the FT4 dropping from 1.0 to .8. But that may be remedied by raising the Armour.
And raising slow release T3 from 20 to 25mcg shows a drop in your free T3 from 3.6 to 3. That seems odd. Again, you could try raising the Armour and see what happens.
PJ Thyroid
I’ll add my two cents…. I have been on NDT for over 10 years. in the past, I have used ARMOUR, ERFA, NATURE-THROID, and NP THYROID. i have always used 2.5 grains and my TSH stayed close to 1. My 3 thyroid panels in 2021 showed my TSH almost at ZERO. So, I would say the 2.5grains of NP-THYROID, I’m using, is STRONGER than usual. Another side effect that I noticed, besides near ZERO TSH, on NP-THYROID, is long spiking of my SYSTOLIC blood pressure. It is taking 10 or more minutes for my SYSTOLIC to SLOWLY drop back to normal. Three days ago, I switched back to 2.5 grains of 2013 ERFA (refrigerated) to see if my TSH will increase. My SYSTOLIC seems to be behaving normally now. I feel like a big experiment.
Janie Bowthorpe
It’s also common for the TSH to be zero when we get our free T4 and free T3 optimal when there’s T3 in our treatment. But glad to read you are feeling success with Erfa!!
https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
L.A.
I’m on 60mg each day of Armour and am definitely not feeling optimal. At first, I felt less hungry and stopped gaining weight. But now, a couple months later, I am gaining weight and don’t have enough energy, feel dissatisfied with food and am hungrier. Granted, things are crazy stressful at work, but I can’t change that right now, so I wish I could compare to non-stressful times. Any thoughts, Janie?
And I must say… I’m tired of doctors. What can we do on our own without a prescription? I’m tired of wasting so much time and money with them. Maybe you can do a blog post on it, or maybe I should ask, does healing come to people by just using the right supplements like thyroid glandulars? I really want to no longer depend on doctors. Even if it’s a decent one, which I have, I’m tired of waiting weeks for each appt. just to make hardly any change. I’m suffering now and need help now.
Janie Bowthorpe
LA, 60 mg is just a starting dose that we raise after two weeks, and raise again by 1/2 grain, and again, to get optimal. Staying on such a low dose ends up backfiring back to hypo, thus gaining weight, not enough energy, etc. You need to read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
L.A.
I’m sorry, Janie, I’m just finding this! I have spent time a few times on the “Optimal” page and something still doesn’t “click” in me as to what to do in my situation (brain fog, maybe? lol ;). I guess I don’t fully understand..? Does everyone need to increase their Armour from 60mg, or that is just depending on levels?
If it’s looking like what I need, what do you suggest I do to get my doctor to allow me to try? Maybe show him the “Optimal” page, or something else?
L.A.
… And I should say, my doc is an Integrative Medicine doc in SoCal, so he is very open compared to other doctors, but he insists my thyroid levels are fine. Is he wrong? I left my recent levels in another comment post that I wrote earlier today. Let me know if I should add them here.
Janie Bowthorpe
From 20 years of our experiences and observations, the free T3 you shared is horribly low. It is NOT about the TSH. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/tsh-why-its-useless. If you can’t educate this doctor, you may need a better one.
Janie Bowthorpe
Yes, we all raise from a starting dose of 60 mg, slowing down in the 2 grain area to do labs, then tweak if needed to become what is talked about here: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal Yes, see if your doctor is open-minded enough to understand the Lab Values page.
L.A.
Ok, will do! Thank you!
Audry Cece
L.A., I could not agree more! I have a natural/good doctor but she wants to test every 8 weeks and possibly only raise me the slightest bit (when I basically beg her.) Since my last apt I have taken it upon myself and doubled how much I take (now up to 120mg of Armour), but now I have to write to her before my next apt and pray she will call me in a new prescription. It’s maddening. Plus expensive to pay for blooodwork every 8 weeks to move at a snail’s pace. I don’t want to feel good in 3 years, I want to feel good ASAP.
Even good natural doctors online like Dr. Westin Child’s and Mark Haymen’s articles say women only need about 2 grains of Armour. I’m not sure how to make my doctor see that some of us need more than that. Possibly much more! It’s frustrating for sure.
Janie Bowthorpe
And 2 grains will fail to make the ‘majority’ optimal with their frees, thus an eventual crash.
L.A.
… Also, Janie… I noticed you mentioned someone else’s ferritin being a concern. Mine was naturally low. I then started taking blood-building supplements and my docs say it’s “fine” now, if that adds to my health puzzle. I also have high cholesterol, low blood pressure, and am naturally low on Vit. D, but I take a LOT so it looks “normal”-ish now. And as I mentioned on another post, my adrenals were looking super low in cortisol production, and now that I returned to work, they were too high, and I’m on a LOT of adrenal-supporting supplements. So far, not feeling much change. 🙁 Sleep is broken, but has been for years. Energy is low all day and then I get a little bit at night when others begin to wind down, but even lately, I haven’t been getting much energy at night either. 🙁
Janie Bowthorpe
Ferritin is about inflammation. So if it’s going above the 90’s for women, it corresponded to inflammation, we have noted for years.
L.A.
Hi Audry Cece,
Sorry I’m just getting your responses! I must’ve missed any notifications. So glad I just started to read through comments again! Sounds like we are in the same boat. Out of desperation, I too have tried doubling my prescribed dose. It seemed to help. I will try again to make sure, but my doc really does not agree. And if I secretly double my dose, I don’t think the pharmacies will refill them so quick, right? I go to Rite Aid. I guess I haven’t doubled them more myself because I’m then afraid of having days where I have none.
And to verify, a “grain” is the same as 60mg each for Armour Thyroid, right?
I should say I’m at the heaviest and most sluggish in my life. 🙁
Janie Bowthorpe
You are heaviest and most sluggish because you haven’t achieved optimal frees, which 60 mg never does.
L.A.
Thank you for your response, Janie! I’m still not getting notifications… not sure why..? Just came on to see if I missed anything again.
Debbie Bowler
I’m over in the UK but my Armour comes from the USA (California to be precise). I have been taking 3gr Armour for 3yrs with successful results. Just lately I’ve gained weight, bloated, hair falling out, feet hurt, tired and constipated. So definitely hypo symptoms. I took a test and my levels have dropped:
TSH 0.01 (0.27-4.2)
FT3 – 4.8 (3.1-6.8)
FT4 – 12.1(12-22)
Ferritin 130 (13-150)
Vitamin D 69 (50-200)
Folate 16.7 ( >2.7)
B12 >150 (>37.5)
I’m working on my vit D but it was even lower at my last test 9 months ago and yet my thyroid levels were higher. I’m on the new armour pill as it looks different and us more crumbly than they were in my last bottle. I’ve raised my armour by 0.5 gr. it’s been 2 weeks and I’m not feeling much better, maybe a teeny weeny bit! How soon do I raise a bit more? Or do I trial levo/t3? Im reluctant to do this as armour worked so well for me in the past but obviously I don’t want fo be unwell
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi. Your ferritin is too high and reveals inflammation. Ferritin is storage iron and goes up in the presence of inflammation. So your RT3 may now be too high, since low iron (which you didn’t test) can cause rising RT3, as can inflammation or high cortisol. So your problem may be more about the rising RT3. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3
Chris
So I did an experiment. I was recently adjusted in my Armour dose from 2 to 2.5 grains. And I felt ok. However still feeling odd so I have 25 mcg added to Armour. I got my blood work done at 6 weeks so still waiting the results but I feel my reverse T3 might have increased from my 12 with the increase in t4.
So I went to the pharmacy last week to renew my script and the pharmacy stated they’re having a hard time getting Armour in so I went with NP until they did 2 grains.
Honestly the NP made me feel more alive , sharp , and energetic and I had less allergy symptoms. Of course I cleared it with my doctor when stating the switch bc I basically had to.
If NP is back and effective – this could be a huge win for NDT. Remember – abbvie purchased Armour and they screwed up symthroid with all these disgusting fillers. It wouldn’t surprise me if they altered armour thyroid.
My NP even said the recalls on naturethroid and NP seemed unfair as the sub potency wasn’t in all the lots recalled and most of them had it in t4 which isn’t the engine.
L.A.
Chris, have you stayed on NP Thyroid since you last wrote? I had such an awful experience with it, which is odd because my doctor had a history of successes with it in the past for other patients, so maybe I was just trying it around the time of the recalled batches. Has it been great since?
Judy
Janie can you tell me what above mid range would be. Labcorp ranges are
T3. 2.0-4.4
T4. 0.82.1.77.
So if my t3 is 3.8. T4. 1.33. On the above ranges. Is my t3. In a good place. Or should it be higher. Or does it depend on other factors?
Thanks
Judy
Janie Bowthorpe
It’s definitely close to being optimal You might even be able to raise a smidge. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Cat
I used to take armour and it help with fatigue and fogginess. Then a few years ago started armour again and it causes muscle tightness and pain, even with the tiny dose I take. What other medicine should I consider.
Janie Bowthorpe
The answer for you is the word “tiny”. We aren’t meant to be on tiny dose, thus your issues. We have to raise until optimal. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Cat
Thank you for your valuable time. So I used to take it and it did not cause intense muscle pain but I restarted it at 15 mg and my muscle pain and joint pain is intense so I keep quitting it.
Janie Bowthorpe
If it’s truly Armour you are on (there’s an A on the tablet), issues like that happen when we stay on too low a dose. The good results we might have once had backfire due to never being optimal. The individuality is when it backfires. You can always move to T4/T3, or if RT3 is moving up, just T3. But you still need to get optimal.
Cat
Thank you so much for your time. Armour years ago would help with fatigue and fogginess.
Now when I take it at 15mg I get very tight muscles and grinding joints (neck and shoulders etc) and I get foggy so I keep stopping it. The tight muscles are intense makes it hard to focus and do my job and be productive. But when I don’t take it I am exhausted.
Wanted to add:
T4 0.9
T3 Free 2.6
TSH 3.0
Janie Bowthorpe
And there’s your problem. You are severely underdosed. Read the linked page I gave you.
Lisa DaPolito
Are you saying you immediately get those symptoms from the medicine or those are the symptoms you are currently having all the time?
Suze
I just want to report that Erfa is still working well for me. I went back to T4 and T3 for a while and it worked too, but that makes me more hyper, whereas Erfa makes me feel more balanced. I am angry that Cytomel is now $54 and I decided to stay on Erfa, which is covered. Cytomel went generic so you have to pay for the name brand now in Canada. I tried the generic and didn’t like it. On Erfa, I still get these sudden feelings of well-being, even while suffering in the heat wave. At night when it gets cooler I feel I could do anything. That is really all I ask.
Janie Bowthorpe
Good to know, Suze!~
Aimee
Does a high reverse T3 & pooling automatically mean that Armour isn’t working/good for me, or is it something specifically wrong with me (iron or cortisol?) I’m on 3 1/2 grains Armour plus 10mcgs of Lio. I’ve never had this issue before on any of the other Ndt’s. My Free T4 is on the low end at 0.90, Free T3 on the higher end at 3.9, and reverse T3 is up to 17.5 using Labcorp’s ranges
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Aimee. In all of the fair evaluation with Armour, do know that high RT3 is about either low iron, inflammation, or high cortisol. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-ot3
And a low FT4 with a high FT3 can mean exploring this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/pooling
Aimee
Thank you for your response, Janie. Will look into those things and bring them to the attention of my provider. I have been under quite a lot of stress lately (frantic move to a new house in another town earlier this year, the ongoing covid pandemic, facing addiction in my marriage, and the death of a parent this month) so I think those things may have something to do with me feeling poorly & not doing as well as I should with thyroid/adrenal/cortisol balance. It’s a cascade of issues for sure, and I’m starting to understand now how they’re all linked
Liesl Wright
IDK what to do, Janie. I’ve been using OTC thyroid brands for years. Did you know that most of them are sold out of thyroid, due to the pandemic? The only company that isn’t sold out, Nutrimeds, has jacked up their price substantially. Also, the Nutrimed product doesn’t seem to work right anymore. It is what I’ve mostly used for years. I’m not sure what to do. It’s sounds like Armor is really the only option with a prescription and it may not even work. Is the idea to make sure none of these products work so we are forced to take a synthetic thyroid? Help!
Janie Bowthorpe
It is nothing but fear-mongering by certain individuals that this was done purposely with conspiracy to stop us from using animal thyroid. It happened because the only US distributor stopped selling porcine powder around 2017. And we don’t know exactly why due to the ridiculous secrecy out there. So US pharms were forced to find the powder elsewhere. And two admitted they were getting it from “Europe”, but what does that actually mean? Clearly, something was wrong with it.
Armour has still been reported as working for what appears to be a good % of thyroid patients, which dispels the black and white, attention-getting opinion that “NDT is working for no one” in this current day and time. To say the latter is not paying attention to a full body of patients that includes both camps. Will Armour go bad for all someday? Anything is possible. But it’s not going on at all yet.
So there is trying Armour if you want to try it and getting those frees optimal, or moving to T4 and T3 and getting those frees optimal, or T3 only and getting the free T3 optimal. 🙂
Ana
I’m following up an earlier comment I made about being one of those still doing well on Armour (150 mg. daily, in split doses). I had thyroid labs done last week, and the results confirm that nothing for me has changed. My numbers have been the same since the fall of 2019: free t3 at the top of the range, free t4 at 1.2 and TSH suppressed.
I noticed that the lab my doctor has used for 12 years keeps changing the reference ranges. Twelve years ago the free t3 range was 2.9 to 4.2. The bottom of the range has gradually gone down over the years; 2.6, then 2.3 and now 2. The top of the range went from 4.2 to 4.4, which is good. The free t3 range is now 2 to 4.4. The free t4 range was .9 to 1.8 until this last test. Now it’s .7 to 1.5. I don’t know what’s going on, but my free t4 was still 1.2 on this different range. It makes me fear they are going even further in trying to normalize hypothyroid blood levels.
I’ve wondered if some people might have decreased potency in some batches of Armour because of the heat. Thyroid hormones degrade quickly in the heat, and I question whether the Armour is kept cool enough during shipping.
Thank you so much, Janie, for digging into this topic. A great help as always!
Janie Bowthorpe
And you are in the company of many others like you…so far. Again, why there’s no integrity is exclaiming it works for no one. lol.
And who knows if certain batches got heat exposed. Another good guess. We’ll just have to let time go by to figure this out.
Karen H.
Just got my Free T3, Free T4 and TSH back and was chagrined to discover my TSH is over 15 (I usually sit somewhere between less than 1 to much lower than that). Both Free T’s have gone down considerably but still within normal range. I will write a follow-up with ranges soon, but Armour is definitely not working for me. This is really discouraging as it was my last hope in NDTs. Is anyone doing okay on Naturethroid? Cytomel is way too over-stimulating for me. I have ms and can’t tolerate it.
Janie Bowthorpe
Karen, in the spirit of being open to all possibilities, post how much Armour you’ve been on and your last (before the latest test you are mentioning) free T4 and free T3, plus RT3.
And Naturethroid has been gone awhile since it’s recall. And if Cytomel is too over-stimulating, that can point to this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info
i.e. this may not be due to Armour changing. So we have to explore the above.
Judy
Hi Janie
I hope you can clarify which armour thyroid pills are the new and which are the old ones. I had a script filled last September for armour I never took them. This year I had a new script filled and the pills are a bit harder and a very small amount thinner. So for a week I took the ones from last year and I didn’t feel well at all. I got a headache and just too much anxiety. I was just going to stop taking armour all together. But then decided to try the new ones and I have been taking them for a couple of weeks and feel so much better. No headaches, no anxiety.
I’m confused about which are old which are new. This is the first time taking armour since 2009.
Thanks.
Hope you can help
Janie Bowthorpe
The problem is that I am getting reports that contradict each other about the pills. The problem can be multi-fold. For one, a change in color can simply be due to a different batch of pig thyroid mixed together as compared to the last batch of powder being used. That’s been known for decades. So color is not definitive in detecting a bad batch of Armour.
Second, some description of pills fit how Armour has been looking/dissolving/tasting for a few years now. i.e. it’s not anything new, even though for the person reporting it, they think it is. You never know what you are picking up from a pharmacy, what batch a patient had been on awhile, etc.
Third, some patients go downhill due to having been underdosed. A crash is inevitable when one isn’t truly optimal. And some people totally fail to fully read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
And a fourth important piece of information: when a brand truly goes bad, the amount of people reporting on has obvious growth. We haven’t yet seen the degree of growth like we have in the past. So we need more time for this to unfold.
Judy
Janie
Thank you
Just curious is mannitol a bad thing in a small amount. I notice that sigma pharma t3 pills has it listed as a ingredient?
Janie Bowthorpe
I personally have issues with mannitol. But with the small amount, I don’t.
Sue Prytherch
Can I just ask a question here? Maybe Janie will find it? I am scheduled to have my labs done tomorrow morning at 8:30am. They are usually running late, so the blood might be drawn around 9:15. I usually take my Armour and T3 at around 8:30. Should I take it before I arrive? Or wait and take it after they draw the blood. Just trying to make sure they have an accurate blood draw. Thanks for any response. I appreciate it. …Should I have posted this on your Facebook group? I don’t see how to post a new topic, so I would need to post it under a previous topic posted by Janie? Thanks.
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Sue. We never should be taking our thyroid pills before labs. All we would be measuring is the great rise of T3 and the minor rise of T4. It’s not about the rises. It’s about what we’re hanging on to.
Sue Prytherch
Thanks Janie! I really appreciate you replying to me.
Janie Bowthorpe
You’re welcome!
Sue Prytherch
Just an update from me. I have been on Armour for a couple years now. Just picked up my refilled prescription yesterday (7/19/2021). I am located on SW Florida, near Fort Myers. The new pills are thinner (like some have already mentioned) and I think they are slightly more beige colored. The new pills are VERY slightly not white. I will not need to start taking these new pills for at least a couple weeks. Should I change over to them NOW? And see if I have problems? And then I could go back to my “good” bottle of pills, while I figure out what to do next? Of those people thinking the new pills are less effective — what have you done? Changed brands of NDT? or have you gotten your doctor to raise your dosage of Armour? What are the other choices of NDT? I am taking 180 mg. of Armour daily – 90 mg. in the morning and 90 mg. at noon. I was so happy on Armour… wish they wouldn’t do this to us. Sad.
Janie Bowthorpe
That makes sense to me to start now so that you have the former pills to fall back on. But also know that it’s been known for decades that the color of these pills can change depending on the stock of pigs that made the powder.
Sue Prytherch
Just an update from me. I have been on Armour for a couple years now. Just picked up my refilled prescription yesterday (7/19/2021). I am located on SW Florida, near Fort Myers. The new pills are thinner (like some have already mentioned) and I think they are slightly more beige colored. The new pills are VERY slightly not white. I will not need to start taking these new pills for at least a couple weeks. Should I change over to them NOW? And see if I have problems? And then I could go back to my “good” bottle of pills, while I figure out what to do next? Of those people thinking the new pills are less effective — what have you done? Changed brands of NDT? or have you gotten your doctor to raise your dosage of Armour? What are the other choices of NDT? I was so happy on Armour… wish they wouldn’t do this to us. Sad.
Gare
The past 2 weeks I’ve been feeling run down, depressed and sometimes anxious just out of nowhere. Today I saw your post about Armour possibly going bad. I checked the refill date on my prescription and it was 6/29…3 weeks ago. I get a 90 day supply every time so my last refill was around March and I was fine during that time. The timing of everything going downhill coincides exactly with my new refill. I’m bummed with finding this out today, but glad there seems to be an explanation. Not sure where to go from here since I had to twist my doctors arm to just Armour, which turned everything around for me over a year ago. When people say they are still doing well on Armour I think it’s important to know when their last refill was. I was doing great until my last refill 3 weeks ago. I’m tempted to up my dose before seeing my doctor to try to get relief, but I suppose it’s best to get new labs on the same dose for an accurate comparison. For informational purposes – I’m in Texas. Any tips on what I should try for next would be appreciated.
Janie Bowthorpe
Gare, to have the best analysis and exploration of this, you also have to consider if you crashed due to being underdosed i.e. not optimal with your frees. A high percentage of us eventually experience a crash just from not having been optimal with our frees. This doesn’t take away that Armour may have changed in certain batches. But we also have to consider other reasons, too. https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Gare
Well I know my labs were good last March and I felt great up until a week after my last refill 3 weeks ago, so it seems to be related to the new refill. But yes, I’ll get my labs again and go from there. Something interesting to note – Last summer i got a bad batch of Armour and went downhill until I got a new refill and returned to normal – so that was a temporary issue with it. I know it was a bad batch because after I got my new refill and started feeling normal again I went on vacation and accidentally took the bad batch with me and I went downhill on vacation. It wasn’t until I got home that I realized I had taken the bad batch – so I know it wasn’t psychosomatic. Hopefully it’s just a temporary setback. I will start paying more attention to the look of the pills.
Janie Bowthorpe
And that’s another possibility we need to explore!! Are these bad reports due to temporary bad batches?? Many questions.
Ivy
I just think a huge majority of the people saying it hasn’t been working for them have other issues going on like iron/cortisol and inflammation.
I once thought Cytomel just blankly stopped working for me and when I saw my labs it didn’t make sense as my TSH was super suppressed and free T3 was at 21 lol! So I thought the formula changed because I felt so crappy! This happened to me with Armour before I got on Cytomel! Inflammation lead me to crash and I thought it was the Armour to bad I never checked my labs at that point in time this was 10/2020. This is when Initially ran into a problem with Armour or atleast I thought I did I’ll never know..
I’m no longer on Cytomel since it has corn. So I haven’t been on Cytomel not Armour for a while now.
Kaci
Interesting, I’ll look out for that. I frequently suffer from inflamation.
Chris
So I keep hearing that the issues with Armour is you may have to go up on your dose if there’s issues on the same one you had optimal results on prior.
My question is: due to cost and say you were on 120 mg of Armour and your free thyroid hormones went down. Why not go up on NP to 150 or 180 MG ? NP is available and the last recall only had a few lots that were recalled.
Janie Bowthorpe
Some did try upping NP and got nowhere. Others were concerned as to upping whatever was causing a cat piss smell..
Chris
I gotcha. Yeah Armour is just too pricey to be on 2.5 grains 🙁 I wish they could offer that in 1 pill. My functional doctor is asking if I’d prefer a compound medication that would save me $30 a month.
Janie Bowthorpe
You can also look at just doing synthetic T4 with synthetic T3…and still get those frees optimal.
Chris
Tried it and the synthetic combo doesnt replace the t1 and t2 benefits. I felt constantly bloated from drinking water on synthetic t4 with t3.
Janie Bowthorpe
Use T4 and T3 with Betaine.
Chris
Are you no longer a fan of Armour ?
Janie Bowthorpe
There are still a strong body of people whose experience and labs show Armour is working for them, even though there are others that it isn’t. So it’s up to you.
Chris
I actually thought about just going on straight t3 to be honest. They added 25 mcg of t3 to my 2.5 grains of Armour. Feel good. It’s just pricey. Wondering if going down on Armour to 1.5 or 2 grains and going up on t3 might work. Get my labs drawn in a bit.
I think the t1 and t2 and calcitonin are extremely beneficial that you can’t get from synthetics in my opinion.
\
Karen
I have been taking Armour for many years, and It has always worked for me. But,
On 4/9/2021 my TSH was 6.13 and T4, 0.8. Doctor up my dose to 90.
New labs, 7/8/2021 and my TSH is 6.59. TPO, 190 and TbAg, 134.
(My PC fights me on testing T4 & T3.) Upping my dose again to 120.
Im not sure what is happening with Armour but 90 mg did nothing, fingers crossed that the 120 will work, as he want to put my on Levothoxine, and I don’t want this…
Janie Bowthorpe
Hi Karen. The reason 90mg did nothing is that it underdoses the vast majority and never gets anyone optimal. Even 120 may be too little. Read this: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Ana
The reports of Armour not working are alarming, but you can add me to the category of people who are still doing well on Armour. So far, so good. I’ve taken it on and off since 2004, and I have been on it again since the Fall of 2019. My labs have been consistently optimal during that time. My tablets have been hard since 2019 until the batch I picked up last month. The new ones are softer, and I was happy to find I could absorb them sublingually. I’m going in for labs this week and will report back.
Philippa, where did you hear that Mannitol has been added to Armour? All the sources I’ve found, most recently updated May 2021, do not show Mannitol or citric acid as being in the Armour formulation. The inactive ingredients are: calcium stearate, dextrose, microcrystalline cellulose, sodium starch glycolate, and opadry white. Perhaps the formula is different in Europe?
Janie Bowthorpe
Glad you posted. It’s come necessary to counter the poor idea that NDT works for no one. And it’s interesting that you, too, found the tablets softer.
Philippa Snowdon
I think I have worked it out. Mannitol.
“Promotion of elimination of renally excreted toxic substances in poisoning.” This is one of the uses of Mannitol. (found in EMC)
For some of us, (quite a lot in France, see ‘Merck’ )I believe the addition of Mannitol and citric acid instead of lactose -beware lactose free – causes the mannitol to mistake the main ingredient for poison. When a drug does not work for me, it doesn’t matter how many pills I take. Armour have added mannitol, to make it lactose free and increase the shelf life. For a large number of us that is very disappointing.
Katie
The first time I got a 90 day supply in October all was well. When I got a refill in January, I started getting headaches. I never get headaches usually – I have a very healthy lifestyle. Since I got the 3rd 90 day supply, the headaches have been gone. I absolutely believed there was something different and the visual in this article appears to confirm it. Just wish I knew what it was so I could avoid it again…it’s so hard to know where to go (I was previously on Naturethroid with lots of hair falling out).
Russ
The thickness and color of my old and new prescription is the opposite of what is shown in the pics.
My old is the thinner one and my new is thicker and also a lighter color.
Janie Bowthorpe
I had to laugh and shake my head. Because these two opposite observations about the pill, just like the two opposite experiences with Armour, are
EXACTLY why it’s lacking in wisdom to say “Armour works for no one”. lol. It’s akin to taking one of the observations about the pills (the new ones have less depth) and totally ignoring what YOU are seeing, which is the opposite. Thank you so much for posting this. It again and again says “It’s is not smart to make black and white conclusions”. We need more time and exploration.
Arlin Tapper
not familiar with posting comments & where is most appropriate to reply with the Armour thyroid issues but here goes:
labs from 7/20/20 on 120mg Armour
Free T3: 4.06 pg/mL
Free T4: 1.27 ng/dL
RT3: 24.8 ng/dL
labs from 6/14/21 still on 120mg of Armour
Free T3: 3.96 pg/mL
Free T4: .96 ng/dL
RT3: 17 ng/dL
From S. California; not other issue that I know about in regards to B12, Iron, adrenals etc.
Stephanie sanchez
Terrible anxiety I have to meditate 2 hours a day been like this since March or I take a little Xanax. Am on 75 mg of armour
Janie Bowthorpe
75 mg Armour is squat, which makes nearly all of us underdosed. Thus anxiety. This is our goal: https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/optimal
Kathie
You know, 3 months ago when I opened my new script of Armour, some of the pills I took melted under my tongue super fast. I thought I was reformulated, but then the rest of the pills were like the old ones that take forever to dissolve.