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Feel better on T4 than you did on Natural Desiccated Thyroid?

Occasionally, hypothyroid patients will exclaim with conviction and truth that they outright feel better on Synthroid or Levothyroxine (T4-only meds) than they did when they tried Natural Desiccated Thyroid (NDT) or even T3-only.  And we believe them.

But…there is an explainable reason which does not mean T4-only is better for you. It really isn’t. Bear with me and read on…

Years ago, as many of us were starting on NDT after being on T4, we were seeing our lives change in a huge way, far more than T4 did! It was like a miracle! Those five hormones really made a difference.

But some others were having problems when raising something so miraculous for others. Huh?? We didn’t get that.

It took awhile longer to finally see why and to answer the “huh?” i.e. we began to see that there were three strong and correctible reasons why someone was not seeing the miracle of NDT as others were, and instead, were blaming the NDT (or T3) and moving back to T4-only…

The three main and correctible reasons why NDT, which gives all five thyroid hormones, seems to fail…

1) NOT BEING “OPTIMAL” WITH YOUR NDT DOSE (it’s NOT about just being in range and not about being held hostage to the TSH)

We all have had a tendency to believe that our doctors know what they are doing with NDT or T3. But, the majority do not. They tend to leave you on too-low doses, and/or pay attention to the lousy TSH. Thus, due to the natural suppression of the feedback loop (hypothalamus to pituitary to thyroid), you will get worse on those lower doses, sooner or later. i.e. you will get more hypo, and/or have rising adrenaline, cortisol, anxiety or other. And because of that, some exclaim “NDT didn’t work for me!” and they rush back to T4-only.  But NDT, with all five thyroid hormones, could have worked well IF you had known to be more optimal. Optimal puts the free T3 towards the top of the range and the free T4 mid-range, and puts the TSH below range…all three…and removes all symptoms. What amount does that is very individual—some start to achieve that in mid-2 grains, others are in the 3-5 grain area, others may be higher.

What if you tried to raise to be optimal, but had worsening problems? Read #2 and #3 below.

2) NOT BEING OPTIMAL WITH YOUR IRON LEVELS (it’s not about just being in range)

When this is brought up to patients who once tried NDT and failed, they will exclaim with all sincerity “But my iron levels were great”. We know that a very small percentage may have had good iron. But what is common with the majority is they did NOT have good levels “Falling in the normal range” does not equal a good level of iron. It’s WHERE one falls that tells the story.

For example, with two types of ranges for serum iron (NOT ferritin):

a) When the range is approx. 40?155: women who have optimal serum iron tend to be close to 110, or 109, or 108, etc. They are NOT in the 90’s and definitely not lower when optimal. Men tend to be in the upper 130’s.
b)  When the range is approx. 7-27: women are optimal around 23ish; men are towards the top.

If they are lower than the latter examples, it messes up the ability to raise NDT and feel great without issue. Why? Inadequate iron levels tend to raise the reverse T3 (RT3) as one is raising their NDT.  As the RT3 goes up due to inadequate iron, you will feel worse. And because of that, some exclaim “NDT didn’t work for me!” and they rush back to T4-only…but if they had had optimal iron, NDT WOULD have worked…as long as they also had optimal cortisol (See #3 below) and were working to find their optimal dose of NDT (see #1)

See more details about iron here: http://stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin

3) NOT BEING OPTIMAL WITH YOUR CORTISOL LEVELS (it’s not about just being in range, and it’s NOT about blood cortisol)

We noted years ago that at least 50% of those with hypothyroidism had a cortisol issue as revealed by saliva, not blood. What does a cortisol issue mean? Either their cortisol was too high (due to the stress of being undiagnosed, poorly treated, or being on T4) or was too low (due to the stress of being undiagnosed, poorly treated, or being on T4), or had both high and low (due to the stress of being undiagnosed, poorly treated, or being on T4).

And what happens with a cortisol issue when you are trying to work with NDT? Either RT3 will go too high (the inactive hormone), or one’s T3 will pool in the blood and not make it to the cells, or both…and you won’t feel well or have bad reactions like excess adrenaline, anxiety, shakiness, feel-bads.

And because of having a cortisol issue, some exclaim “NDT didn’t work for me!” and they rush back to T4-only…but if they had…

a) done the 4-point saliva test, not blood
b) compared the saliva results it to the lab-values page (it’s not about that normal range)
c) CORRECTLY treated it (see this page, plus Chapter 6 in the updated revision STTM book if saliva is VERY low, which also applies to Adrenal Cortex),

….they would have soared on NDT…along with good iron and being OPTIMAL on NDT (or T3)

Note: it’s always about the results of a saliva test, NOT blood cortisol.

Bottom line, it’s not as simple as “feeling better on T4”. It’s more about that you are NOT experiencing the side effects that you did on NDT from any of the above three problems, which were all correctible. That is different.

“That all sounds like too much trouble–I’m staying on T4-only!”, you may be exclaiming….

There is a big problem with that reasoning that I hope you will be open to….Namely, T4-only outright…

  • CAUSES low iron
  • CAUSES a cortisol problem
  • CAUSES many other issues like lowered B12, lowered Vitamin D, rising blood pressure, rising cholesterol, depression, anxiety, heart issues, bone thinning, chronic pain….and more. The individuality is in who gets which…but T4 users do get problems of their own kind, sooner or later.

Please note that the above is not an empty strong opinion. It’s based on years of reported patient experiences from many who were on T4! i.e. most of the following hypothyroid symptoms were experienced by T4 users!! They were still hypo!

Now you may state “But I know people on T4 who do not have those problems!”.

First, some outright DO have some of those problems, but don’t realize it or they deny it (while others see it in them). Adrenal issues, even those denied, can make certain people awash with defensiveness, argumentativeness, denial, anger, paranoia towards others observations, low patience, moodiness, etc.

Yes, some on T4 do, in fact, do better than others. But you know what we have observed? The longer they stay on T4-only, the more problems WILL, in fact, raise their ugly heads eventually…like either adrenal issues, or low iron, or low B12, or depression, or rising cholesterol, or rising blood pressure, or heart problems, or dry skin and hair, or chronic pain, or bone loss, or rising illnesses…..on and on. Forcing the body to live for conversion alone backfires….sooner or later.

Summary: A working Natural Desiccated Thyroid, or adding T3 to that T4 as a second choice and getting those frees optimal, is a much better way to go than being on nothing but T4, according to years of worldwide patient experiences

A working NDT gives you all five thyroid hormones, and does NOT force you to live for conversion of T4 to T3 alone, i.e. some of NDT is direct T3. Additionally with T4-only, some people have genetic mutations which hinder the conversion of T4 to T3 and may not realize it.

There is a good reason that millions of patients found out that T4-only is not the way to go for many reasons, and NDT is the way to go if you correct the reasons you did NOT to do well...or even adding T3 to your T4 in an OPTIMAL amount. But you will still need optimal iron and cortisol!

P.S. The above three reasons are the most common for not doing well on NDT (or T3) and should be considered first. A 4th less common reason: chronic inflammation of any cause. Read about inflammation. If this is true for you, the sad part is that T4-only will also backfire, as it raises RT3.

Mold exposure can also effect conversion.

Click on the graphic to order an excellent saliva cortisol test.

101 replies

If you could turn back the clock, would you have started on NDT instead of T4-only??

CLOCK turning back.bmp“If you could turn the clock back to when you were first diagnosed, would you even have bothered trying the synthetic Thyroxine (T4-only) or would you have jumped right in with NDT (Natural Desiccated Thyroid)?”

The above is an interesting real question asked by a new thyroid patient recently to other thyroid patients in a forum.

She is in the dilemma that so many NEW hypothyroid patients find themselves in when their doctors are pushing T4-only, yet patient experiences as outlined on STTM are saying that NDT was a better treatment for all too many. WHO TO BELIEVE?? Sure, some state they do well on T4-only, but is there more to the story?  Here are the answers from many different individuals in that string, plus more:

  • I would definitely go directly to NDT. NO doubt about it!!!
  • I never would have taken synthetics if I had known then what I know now. I have spent the last 15 years or so (maybe longer including the undiagnosed time) not in optimal health.
  • I agree 100% with the above two comments!
  • I would never have started on synthetic. Straight to ndt!
  • I was diagnosed 6 months ago. I switched after 2.5. I never felt any improvement on levo. If anything felt worse
  • I have been on over 9 different meds for the last 5 yrs. I found the STTM site, switched to NDT and I will never go back to all those drugs/meds! Life is actually returning to my body! The dr’s can keep you sick! Just my own personal experience!
  • I agree with the above. Had I known I would have never of taken Syncrap (Synthroid). Now I’m trying to fix the damage that has been done.
  • I have only ever been on synthetic (nine years), first Levoxyl and most recently Tirosint. If I had to do over, I would have tried NDT first no doubt.
  • On Eltroxin, heart issues were chest pains, numbness on my left arm, tachycardia, inverted t waves on the ECG which led them to believe i had a heart attack. I had a crazy fever and was doing reverse t3 clearout when that happened, but had it not been for synthetic, i believe i would not have gotten that bad. After taking synthetic for just a few months i also became thyrotoxic with large amounts of t4 pooling in my blood which ultimately meant to me i had conversion issues.
  • I’ve been on synthetic for 15 plus years. At the time I was desperate and even though I’ve done mostly natural on a lot of other fronts… I wasn’t aware there was an alternative. It seemed like a lifesaver at the time, as I was desperate. Now, with all the additional issues, which may likely be connected, I’d go with the natural for sure.
  • I took Synthroid, Levothyroxine and Cytomel… none of these synthetics helped me. I think my fibromyalgia diagnosis 15 years ago was due to an undertreated thyroid on Synthroid. I lost a LOT of hair as well! Armour’s resolved my hair loss within a week. It’ll take a while to grow back, but at least I’m not losing handfuls anymore!
  • I would have gone for Natural…I was HORRID on Synthroid
  • A year ago I got so sick I could barely walk to the bathroom. I couldn’t breath, shower, walk, and literally felt like I was dying. MY levothyroxine was raised from 225 to 275 which bought my TSH from 15 down to 2.5 which my NP thought was “great” – all the while I’m telling her I feel like I’m dying.  I will never ever go back to SYNTHETIC (T4-only)!!  Only wish I had even known there was NDT 25 years ago. I JUST heard of NDT 6 months ago through a Yahoo Group and then thank GOD I found STTM.  
  • If you have a choice ndt is a great option.
  • I would too have gone straight on NDT. I spent 2 yrs fighting with my levels (going from hypo to hyper) while taking Synthroid and Cytomel. Not one of the 5 doctors I saw could ever get me regulated. Within 3 or 4 months after I started self-treating (because I was living overseas where they don’t even have NDT) I was optimized…lost almost 40 lbs and felt wonderful.
  • I would have absolutely gone with NDT first…
  • If I had stayed on Synthroid for 6 months, I would not be here now because I would have committed suicide. I was thinking about it at 2 months. Thank God I discovered NDT (Natural Dessicated Thyroid) hormone then and switched.
  • I was on Synthroid for a good 20 years and would have said I was doing great, energy-wise. But I never realized that my rising cholesterol, need to nap and antidepressant was due to Syncrap being inadequate. I wouldn’t do it again, in spite of having better energy than others. 
  • I would not have tried synthetic thyroid first. NDT closely resembles the human thyroid hormones. NDT has T1 and T2 (which they are not even sure what the purpose of these thyroid hormones are yet), T3, T4, and Calcitonin. Calcitonin is important for bone strength. People who have taken synthetic, T4-only thyroid have eventually developed osteoporosis. Our bodies need all the ingredients in natural thyroid.
  • That’s easy. I would have started on desiccated. Why take the risk when T4 has caused so many problems for so many?
  • Yes. I am one who was started on both T4 and T3. I thought it was the right thing. When I switched to Np Thyroid, it was hugely better. It’s true what peeps say about it better even better. I do have good iron and cortisol.
  • Yes, yes, yes.

Another gal mentioned she would have gone to to the high iodine protocol first (on the premise that her hypothyroidism coud have been from low iodine).

Another said she didn’t do well on NDT, but she and any others in her shoes can discover why here i.e. it’s not about NDT–it’s about two common issues that NDT will reveal, and if treated correctly, one can soar on NDT!

Another felt it was a tough call due to some doing well on T4-only…but you have to consider that many aren’t as well as they claim (and are taking meds to bandaid the symptoms of a poor treatment), or they will and do see more problems crop up the longer they are on, in spite of doing well now.

Yes, if I could turn back the clock, I would have had better life experiences.

26 replies

The Good Housekeeping fiasco asks a huge question: when is the media going to catch up with the real world?

As informed thyroid patients, we’ve all been talking about it in patient groups, blog posts, and amongst each other.  About.com’s Mary Shomon did a good write up in her blog post, and you can see one of several different Facebook group conversations here as well as the article and our comments after it, here.

And if you haven’t caught up with it all yet, here is a summary of the extremely sad misinformation and implications contained in an article of the latest issue in the Good Housekeeping magazine:

  1. that the first step to diagnosing your potential hypothyroid problem is the use of the thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) lab test  (a test which informed patients worldwide exclaim has left them either undiagnosed for years or undertreated! //www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/tsh-why-its-useless)
  2. that your TSH may only point to hypothyroidism if it comes back at 10 or higher (Hogwash!! say informed thyroid patients, who have been hypothyroid with a TSH in the two’s! See above.)
  3. that the only other tests you may need are the T4 and antibodies  (which informed patients have found is only PART of what you need, which needs to include the very important  free T3!  //www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork)
  4. that it’s worthy to quote a Dr. Daniels who states “There’s no compelling evidence that medication helps patients whose TSH is in the 5.0 to 10.0 range,”  (exactly the kind of doctor which nearly all informed thyroid patients state has kept them repeatly sick for years!  //www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/give-me-a-break )
  5. that if you have “other problems”, such as infertility or depression, your doctor might suggest medication (when, oh when, are doctors going to GET IT that depression and infertility are key symptoms of ongoing hypothyroidism!! //www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic )
  6. that T4 meds like Synthroid are T4 hormone are the go-to medication (and are the very medications which have kept patients sick, disabled, or with problematic hypothyroid symptoms  for  over 50 years! //www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/t4-only-meds-dont-work )
  7. that the “potency can vary” for desiccated thyroid…as if that’s a good reason to be concerned about its use  (potency is set in a predictable range and is made according to the strict guidance of  the United States Pharmacopeia , say the makers of desiccated thyroid, and desiccated thyroid has been changing lives ten fold for decades!  //www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/natural-thyroid-101)
  8. And last but not least…that you need to be on-guard about online patient information (yet wise and repeated “patient experience” has changed not only patient lives, but the way open-minded doctors are practicing in their own offices!! //www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/things-we-have-learned 

All the above, appearing in what we all thought would be considered a long-standing good magazine, only underscores the irresponsibility and ignorance of the media about REAL LIFE!! Who wants to subscribe to any magazine, or listen in seriousness to any news program, talk show, or internet website that allows this kind of DARK AGES BALONEY on its pages??  I don’t.

P.S. One particularly personal tragedy is the author of this article, Susan Carlton. She is clearly hypothyroid, yet completely duped by the pharmaceutically-brainwashed medical field which clings blindly to a poor medication and inadequate labwork.  She is ALL OF US LOOKING AT OURSELVES all those years when we believed in the doctors we went to and emptied our pocketbooks to try and find out why we had depression, infertility, rising cholesterol and blood pressure, linger aches and pains, poor stamina and fatigue, weight gain, hair loss, anxiety…and so many more symptoms of undiagnosed or undertreated hypothyroidism. 

And sadly, how many of us also thought that actions similar to “drinking more java (for energy)”, or “honing crossword skills (for focus)” or attending a “spinning class”  (for our weight gain) was going to help us!  They didn’t help at all. They just sent us closer to adrenal dysfunction and disability.

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If you could speak to the author, Susan Carlton, in kindness and wisdom, what would you say to help her get past the brainwashing she is a victim to, as you were??

If you could speak to Good Housekeeping and all media like Oprah, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, FOX, what would you say about the repeated misinformation?

12 replies

The shackling and gagging of Dr. Sarah Myhill of the UK

(4-30: Paula has informed me that you can download Dr. Myhill’s complete website to your computer via this zip file: www.drmyhill.co.uk.zip – Windows Live )

Today, it has been announced by the GMC (General Medical Council) of the UK that Dr. Sarah Myhill is now straitjacketed. She is forbidden to prescribe medications, is bound by other medical practice restrictions (see the details on the Support Dr. Myhill Facebook page), and most egregiously, has been ordered to remove parts of her website (thanks to Lethal Lee for pointing this out), some of which you will not see two weeks after I have posted this.

Why remove parts of her website? Because by daring to educate the public, especially if that education goes against “standard medical practice”, it seems to be deemed “harmful”. In other words, you as a patient are not allowed to discover, or are too “vulnerable to get it,  that there just might be a TOTALLY different story to the medical practice you are subjected to.

For example, here is part of a page on Dr. Myhill’s website which is completely correct, informative, and wise, and I want to see her words stay sharp and viewable, especially for thyroid patients. It fits our experience. The page is titled “Test results and what they mean”. If you want to be informed, read all the below.

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Category:Test_results_and_what_they_mean

Only too often people come to me with tests results which have not been properly interpreted. The reasons why this happens are as follows:

  • Test results are flagged up and considered to be abnormal if they are outside the reference range, but one’s individual normal range is not the same as the population reference range. This is a particular problem in the interpretation of thyroid tests.
  • Reference ranges for tests change. Reference ranges are based on random bloods from the population. The trouble is anyone following a Western lifestyle is not evolutionarily correct and many not normal! So labs change their reference ranges to adjust for this. So, for example, the normal range of a gamma GT used to be up to 36, it is now up to 70. This enzyme is induced by alcohol and prescription drugs and because so many people drink alcohol it is considered normal to run a high gamma GT! The lab I use has a normal reference range for thyroid hormone T4 of 12-22pmol/l but some labs give ranges of 5.6-17pmol/l!
  • Tests are often incomplete. So someone with a thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) within reference range will be told they have no thyroid problem, when in fact one also needs a free T4 and a free T3 together with a clinical history to assess if there is a thyroid problem.
  • Drug companies influence normal ranges. The normal range for cholesterol has come down steadily since statins have been such big money earners for Big Pharma.
  • Incorrect breakdown of test results. Many people are prescribed statins on the basis of a single cholesterol level. This is faulty for many reas ons – firstly one needs a breakdown of good (HDL) and bad (LDL) cholesterol to get the ratio. If the ratio is not favourable then this is likely to be a symptom of arterial disease. Cholesterol lowering drugs are often irrelevant. See Cholesterol – the common causes of raised levels
  • Results close to the limits of normal may be abnormal for that person. For example, a high normal bilirubin may mean Gilbert’s syndrome – this means someone is a poor detoxifier. A high mean corpuscular volume (MCV) could point to hypothyroidism, B12 or folic acid deficiency.
  • Normal tests do not mean no pathology. A normal ECG at rest does not mean there is no heart disease, yet many people are told this is the case.
  • Tests may ask the wrong question. So many people come to me with severe fatigue syndromes having been told nothing is wrong because all the tests are normal! But ask the right question and do Mitochondrial Function Profile and you find gross abnormalities with respect to energy supply at the cellular level.
  • Tests for poisonings are particularly misleading. For years doctors have promoted levels of cholinesterase as a good test for organophosphate poisoning. It is a rotten test and misses the majority of cases! Much better would be Fat biopsy for pesticides or Volatile Organic Compounds

GOOD FOR YOU, Dr. Sarah Myhill!

I and many other thyroid patients, struggling to fight the inane thyroid treatment protocols, have a strong feeling that though this progressive doctor may be restricted as a physician, we’re going to hear a lot more good information from the courageous and wise Sarah Myhill.

21 replies

It ain’t for sissies: getting older and hypothyroidism (plus FDA says it did NOT tell pharms to stop desiccated thyroid)

Yup, we’re all heading in the same direction—being just a tad older every single year and getting that first mailing from AARP.  Yup.

And getting older increases the incidence of thyroid disease.

Even worse, those who acquire it at an older age are probably going to go through the same bunk and bull those younger have gone through–having depression, rising cholesterol, osteoporosis or ostepenia, weight gain, easy fatigue, couch potato syndrome, dry skin and hair, plus more—-all classic symptoms of undiagnosed or undertreated hypothyroidism.

But older folks are told it’s all just part of aging so here’s your latest tablet for your handy-dandy Wal Mart pill box.

I recently found a great blog by Pam whose Feb. 23rd, 2010 post is titled Older Women and Low Thyroid. She turned 65 in 2009 (and she looks a lot younger) and writes how she found herself with hypothyroid at a later age as well.  And Pam is WAY ahead of the game in her knowledge. She understands that most older folks are put on Synthroid (which can be a lousy way to treat hypothyroidism for many), that getting older means conversion from T4 to T3 can be more difficult,  that being on desiccated thyroid or T3-only just might be the better treatment, and you can get adrenal fatigue at an older age as well (thanks to poor treatment with T4, the TSH lab test, or being underdosed even on desiccated thyroid).

You can read Pam’s post here, as well as about the phone call from her friend who is 50 lbs overweight, has brain fog, is out of work, has no energy…and voila–is on Synthroid so it can’t POSSIBLY be her thyroid. Sad. In fact, what has happened to Pam’s friend is what I keep stating to those who feel they are just doing peachy on T4: watch out, because as you age, the truth about T4 will reveal itself!

Pam, I love your blog posts, and I’m going to hope to see more of those in the “venerable age range” be just as wise as you are!!

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FDA HAS MADE A STATEMENT ABOUT NATURAL DESICCATED THYROID: Just before I was going to plop into my bed for the evening, I checked my notifications to discover that right on the FDA website and their 2010 Drug Shortages page (3rd column up from bottom), it states: Forest reports manufacturing issues involving the raw material and RLC reports increased demand. FDA has not ordered Forest or RLC to remove these thyroid (desiccated) tablets from the market. BINGO. I’ve been waiting for this for months, because though websites and groups were formed last year as if we needed to “rescue” desiccated thyroid from being banned, I couldn’t join the fearful rally of a few because my gut was telling me something quite different.  And a few others, I discovered, had the same feeling.  And hooray! Our guts were right on!

Does this mean the FDA “gets it” about desiccated thyroid? Maybe, or maybe not. Yes, their timing WAS awful last year with Time Caps Labs, right when we were starting a shortage. And there does appear to be some kind of future requirement “proving” the safety and efficacy of dess. thyroid–two things we ALREADY KNOW from 110 years of safe and effective use. Duhhh on the FDA. But it’s FAR more hopeful now, and realistic, and will hopefully promote more reasonable thinking from now on.

Onward and upward, folks.

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Naturethroid is coming back in pharmacies all over the US! See the blog post below or here for information about  the “new” Naturethroid.

(If you are reading this via the Newsletter email notification, just click on the title of this blog post to come directly to the site where you can Comment).

5 replies